TAPE DELAY

CONFESSIONS FROM THE EIGHTIES UNDERGROUND.

FROM THE BOOK BY CHARLES NEAL

Matt Johnson first became involved with the music industry after he left school and worked in a recording studio in Soho. However, making cups of tea proved intolerable for Johnson, who spent the next two years unemployed. He subsequently advertised in the music papers for people with similar affection towards The Residents, Throbbing Gristle and The Velvet Underground, eventually forming The The in 1979. After releasing two singles, Controversial Subject and Cold Spell Ahead, and supporting Wire, Scritti Politti, DAF, This Heat and Cabaret Voltaire live, Johnson liquidated The The; under his own name he released Burning Blue Soul in 1981- an album on which he played all the instruments and recorded for a mere eighteen hundred pounds. Re-adopting the name The The, the East-end native signed to Some Bizzare and released the album Soul Mining through CBS in 1983. Work over the next three years culminated with the release of Infected in 1986, in which Johnson explores addiction, affliction and attrition – his view of the Western condition. In addition to The The, Johnson has also recorded with The Gadgets and Marc Almond in Marc And The Mambas.

CN: How do you want people to see Matt Johnson?

MJ: I don’t know really. As a serious musician in that I’m strong in my beliefs and sincere in the music that I do without being po-faced, because there is a lot of humour in my stuff too. I don’t really think about it that much actually – those things which are important to distinguish me from the mass of music coming out. So much of it now is just the same. Too see me as being quite innovative, and if not one step ahead, then one step sideways from everybody else. Just different from everybody else, because I’ve always thought of myself as different. I certainly don’t want to be seen as an electronic wonder or anything, more like a singer-songwriter, or a modern day folk singer dealing with fairly close to the heart questions. I just want to be seen as the first Matt Johnson, not the new anybody or the second anybody. I would just like the name The The to be synonymous with high quality and passion. That’s as brief an idea as I can give because I’ve never really thought about it that much.

CN: What would you define as the ‘Rock Business’ game?

MJ: ‘Music business’, ‘music biz’, ‘rock biz’ immediately sums up commerciality to me. I suppose it’s just a gimmick, a lot of back biting and a lot of dog eat dog. Surrounding yourself with the right people and the right producer, plagiarising the moods of the moment and the ideas of the moment, using the most successful video-maker, and going with the most successful company with the most singles in the charts at the moment. It’s quite nasty, it’s quite an infested business really, but I suppose no more than something like the film business or any business where there’s a lot of money involved. From an A&R person’s point of view, it seems like they enjoy the music biz more than the music itself, they like the whole coke sniffing kind of thing that goes on at gigs and the whole idea of being seen at the right place. But the game is totally disgusting really – and horrible. It’s quite simple to play, but you have to be fairly good to play the game well. And I’m trying to play my own games within the limits of that game obviously. I’m trying to detach myself slightly from it but I’ve got to work with these people, so it’s a question of doing it in a way which is the least harmful, I suppose – if that makes sense.

CN: If CBS dropped you or you left CBS, do you feel that you could still play your games without a major company behind you?

MJ: I was thinking about this the other day funnily enough. What would happen if CBS dropped me? It would shock me a great deal, because I know I’m fairly highly regarded there anyway and I do pay for myself – so that’s no problem. No, I don’t think I’d have any problem getting another deal actually, I’d just make it more clarified and sharpen everything else, and I’m starting to do that anyway. Like my brother does all my illustrations and we’re going to start to doing some video things together. He’s becoming more involved and I’m developing a visual side of things anyway. I’ve never really done anything I didn’t want to do apart from go to school. Again, it comes down to having enough confidence in yourself and self-belief, just gambling everything, and knowing in yourself that you’re right in what you’re doing. Doubts decay the empty mind, but they’re quickly dismissed by a strong foundation of optimism which defeats any kind of negativism or any doubts. That’s basically what it is.

CN: Why do some people allow themselves to be prostituted?

MJ: Some people are weaker basically. Like at school, some people get bullied, don’t they? Same thing. So all the way through life, there are comparisons to be drawn with every level or strata of life. In every area, there are always the weak personalities.

CN: Do you feel that your product fits in with the image that a person on the street might have of Some Bizzare?

MJ: Well, to be quite honest with you, I don’t know what image a person on the street has of Some Bizzare, I mean, are Some Bizzare known on the street? Soft Cell were known but Some Bizzare? I guess it’s a real cult thing, isn’t it? With the family of Some Bizzare, I’m a bit of a black sheep anyway. I’ve always felt to be the black sheep of the family so to speak anyway, lots of people have always said that, and I think that’s good in a way, I feel good about that, I’d rather be the black sheep. Even with my own family I’ve felt like the black sheep. I like being the black sheep. It’s just a feeling, it’s difficult to put into words. But I’ve always felt slightly detached and in my own little world. I live in a little dream world most of the time, and I feel quite detached and cocooned from things. And I’ve always been like that, always the one to just wander off by myself. My family used to go out to the seaside, and I’d be the one that used to run off and hide and didn’t want to go our and stuff like that. I’ve always felt that. I think that’s good.

CN: How do you feel that your music inspires people?

MJ: I’ve always felt that music is important on a personal level as a great motivator. I’ve got about a dozen albums at home that I’ve listened to for about five years, and if I put them on in a certain mood, they just make me feel really good and make me do things. I can hear a line off them which will suggest things to me, or the music will. It’s like food for the soul in a way, and hopefully, my music does the same thing for other people – it implants something, so I think my music is very important. I think eating the right food is important and listening to the right music is important. What a quote for you! ‘Only buy The The, no artificial additives or sweeteners!’ Oh, I’m starting a magazine, ‘Bugle Boy’. A The The information service magazine. What I want to do is have articles written by other people in it and stuff like that. Not pictures of me everywhere, but information on what I’m doing. But I also want to include information on other people, and make it A5 size – a little booklet. A really good quality magazine with artists and video makers contributing to it. I think it could be quite good.

CN: It’s a good idea, but I laughed because you said before that you cut off all your hair to look like Jimmy Somerville from the Communards and then I thought ‘Bugle Boy’ for the name of a magazine was a little over the top.

MJ: Oh my God! A Small Town Bugle Boy. I only got a little bugle. Yeah, that’s the point you fucking ...

CN: Did you say ‘Conform to Deform’?

MJ: No, that was Stevo. Foetus’ answer to that was, ‘Bollocks, deform to deform’, which I though was really good. (Laughs)

CN: Do you think that it’s necessary to ‘play the game’ in order to get a large audience, or is it possible to do what you want all the way through, like Foetus for instance, and still get that audience?

MJ: He’s doing what he wants to all the way through – he’s starving too, by the way, but he doesn’t care. I’m doing what I want to do as well, but I’m not starving, so there’s a difference. It depends really on how accessible you are. My stuff is more accessible than his at the moment, but I think Foetus is very accessible actually. I must admit, I think he should be massive, he should be the new Elvis Presley, the white Michael Jackson. He could – he’s got the looks for it, and he’s got the talent for it. I mean, a phenomenon – he could be massive.

CN: Is ‘Giant’ being remixed?

MJ: Apparently ... yeah.

CN: Who is it being done by?

MJ: Arthur Baker.

CN: Are you excited by that?

MJ: Not really. Well, kind of, but I just wish he’d get a move on because when I was over there (NYC) recently he just couldn’t get it together. I went up to his studio a couple of times and just messed about a little. He was listening to the multi-track and suggested a few things, but he just hasn’t done it. So I wish he’d get on and do it basically. If he does it, great, but if he doesn’t then ...

CN: Get Jim to re-mix it?

MJ: Well I’m going to be working with Jim. In actual fact, yeah, what a good idea. I’ll do that. Yeah, he’d do it better probably. Good idea. I’m gonna tell Stevo tonight to tell Arthur Baker to stuff it up his arse. Good idea! Foetus will re-mix it. What a bit of inspiration ... your round as well.

CN: With ‘Red Cinders In The Sand’ and ‘Cold Spell Ahead’ you move into an entirely different song halfway through without pause, yet you keep the same title. Why is that?

MJ: Wait until you hear what I’m doing with my new drum machine, fuckin’ hell! The reason ‘Red Cinders In The Sand’ did that was because I recorded a track with that guitar break which is in it, and I thought ‘Fuck, I don’t like this song really’. So, I started to record another song, which was ‘Red Cinders In The Sand’. Then I forgot to erase a couple of tracks, and I listened to them with those guitar things, and I thought ‘Fuck, that sounds good’. So I started pressing the buttons in and out, I mean this was 1981, I was doing all this hip-hop stuff at the board (laughs) and I thought ‘ This sounds really good’. It was purely by accident, which is how a lot of good things come out. They’re just happy accidents really. On ‘Cold Spell Ahead’, I had two time sequences. There was the ‘Uncertain Smile’ one, and there was also the one which was the ‘Touch Of Experience’, but they were different time sequences. They went so well together, but the only way that they could possibly be together was by having a tempo change – and the amount of problems we had! Because the time that I did that was 1981 as well, and rhythm machines were very primitive, I mean, I’ve been using rhythm machines now since 1977 which is a long time. In fact, when I went to get the drumulator, the kid that I got it off was … (laughs) I said, ‘Can I have a demonstration of the drumulator?. And he went, ‘Well, as you can see, it has all the things ..’ you know being really cocky. And I thought, I didn’t say it, I thought I should say to him, ‘I was using these when you were still in nappies mate, don’t give me that!’ So I said to him ‘How do you do the old so and so on that?’ - because I knew that he wouldn’t know. And he just went bright red going, ‘Oh ... I don’t know ... oh, oh, ‘ and he started cursing the machine because he didn’t know how to use it. (laughs) Anyway, with the one that I first started using, we had to have the help of some guy. I would go…’Now!’, and then it would sort of switch over to get the tempo change. It was very primitively done. I had to do that because although the two chord sequences went very well together they were in different time signatures and tempos.

CN: Did you feel that you’re trying to change music in any way?

MJ: I think that Test Dept. and Einsturzende Neubauten are doing more to change music than I am quite frankly, because I work within fairly standard formats. Like a half to two thirds of my stuff is songs, and the rest is often quite innovative and experimental. So in a way, I’m not trying as hard as I should be. I started to realise that I’m being a bit too straight in a lot of my things. And it becomes very easy and comfortable to write a song instead of taxing yourself to think of different ways to do things. So I’m not making a massive contribution at the moment, but I think I have made a contribution because I hear lots of my ideas popping up in other people’s records. Obviously some of them are getting through to younger bands and stuff. But that is in a fairly negative way – they’re just copying. But I applaud what Test Dept and Neubauten are doing. I admire them because they’re pushing against the perimeters really – ‘What is music and sound?’, and stuff like that. Both groups are very sincere and love what they are doing, they do it with passion and they do it brilliantly. Now I couldn’t do that, so it has got to come from me. I’ve got to push down and do what is right as far as I’m concerned. I think I could do it by just sounds, just song structure, just lyrical content and vocal style. So many things I can really expand and push the perimeters in , and Test Dept. and Neubauten are doing it in other ways. But for me to just say, ‘I’m going to do something totally unorthodox just for the sake of it’ is fuckin’ cheap and dishonest and I wouldn’t do that. I suppose with more experience, you develop a higher filter in certain songs or situations, or to certain lyric which you’re going to apply to music to. But I’m probably doing about a quarter of what I could achieve at the moment. The amount of effort that I put into it is about twenty five percent, and I’ve got to learn to put one hundred percent into everything I do, in all areas of my life.

CN: What’s holding you back?

MJ: Laziness. I’ve been expecting too much, thinking I had a divine right to do things that I didn’t. You’ve got to work at things. It’s not good enough just to be good. You’ve got to work. In fact, there’s a lesson to be learned from Martina Navratilova and John McEnroe, the effort they put in and that determination. They are the number ones in the world, but they’re still not satisfied with what they’re doing. They’ve got to be better and better. And I find that really inspiring. They’re always striving for perfection. People should learn a lesson from sporting champions and give one hundred percent in every thing they do. But I’m fascinated by music, I love music, I’ve had a lifelong love affair with music. That is why it is still my hobby really, as well as my work. And I hope that it continues. The music business can make you go sour, I just hope it doesn’t ruin it as a hobby for me. I love listening to it; I love analysing how it works and I love writing it. I think it’s great.

(‘Two Tribes’ by Frankie Goes To Hollywood begins on the jukebox) That really irritates me, that ‘Ow,ow,ow’. If he didn’t do it on every song it would be OK. But it seems to slip out. Probably when he’s on the toilet, he goes ‘Ow,ow,ow,’ (laughs). Actually, I think that Frankie Goes To Hollywood breathed a bit of fresh air into the charts. Frankly, I’d rather have Frankie at number one than Spandau Ballet, Duran Duran, A-Ha, or whatever else, because there’s a little bit of aggression in their imagery, and they’re quite stylish. Musically, they’re more interesting as well. It’s a lesson to be learned – the way that they’ve gone about the whole thing.

CN: Do you feel that’s it’s important to have knowledge of the record industry, or are you embarrassed by that?

MJ: I think it’s very useful, in fact, even now I still read as much as I can about it. Because basically, music is my craft, and manipulating the music business should be an extension of what I’m doing. There’s so much stuff out there that you’ve got to have a better knowledge of, so I try to amass and absorb as much information as possible. I don’t think you can every know too much or should ever be embarrassed by knowledge. Every bit of knowledge is useful in some way or another. I’m still learning about it really. But ah … your round. (Grabs paper with notes on it). Interviewers never like you reading their questions ...

CN: I don’t care.

MJ: (laughs) Fuck you! (Reads) ‘Why Some Bizzare?’ Because I’m a social outcast. Some Bizzare is a home for social lepers – emotional constipated people looking for a spiritual laxative. I fit in because I suppose ... well ... I don’t know. They say, ‘They say the eye never sees itself.’

CN: Who says that?

MJ: Thomas Beckett. No, I don’t know who it was, but it was a quote and it was in one of my songs actually. I used it, the eye never sees itself except when it looks in the mirror. Can you imagine that, your eye. I am fascinated by eyes, I think they’re great.

CN: I’m sure they mean the ‘I’ that’s you?

MJ: No, the ‘eye’ (points to his eye) never sees itself. You can’t see your own eye can you? Unless you look in the mirror. That’s what it means, you can see every other part of your body. Oh, your forehead, you can’t see your forehead.

CN: You can.

MJ: No, the eye never… Yeah, I know , but ah, it’s like….Ask me a question, you go off and I’ll answer it.

CN: Alright. Why is it that the person being interviewed wants to read the questions which are to be asked of him before they are asked?

MJ: And you’re going to the bog while I answer it. OK, go on then so you can’t hear my answer. (Pause, interviewer leaves). Well ... basically, it’s because people like me, and other musicians, get asked so many questions all the time – like these ones I’m holding up at the moment. ‘Why make a record? I mean do me a favour. I mean look, it actually says, ‘Why make a record?’ I mean what idiot would ask a question like that? ‘Radio airplay, is it important?’, I mean, ‘Why Some Bizzare?’, I mean do me a favour. We just like to check our questions before we get asked them because you never know what you might get asked. Also, you might get asked some rude questions which, of course, being the professional that I am, I’m not able to answer. Anyway, I think that sums up this question, and I hope you’ve got my soda water and I hope it’s bloody cold. (Interviewer returns….) And your questions aren’t too bad. I suppose.

CN: Do you feel that your music is direct enough to change something?

MJ: My music tends to be quite pleasant, plays on the emotions and inspires an emotional response. When Throbbing Gristle did it, for instance, it was physical. That is the major difference. In fact, when I met Leonard Cohen, name dropping here, but me and Leonard, well me and Foetus met him actually – we went to dinner with him. And Lennie was talking about the equal strength between soft and hard. Soft is just as strong as hard, hard being something abrasive like Throbbing Gristle, but soft being something that was more mellow initially, but has the power to move you from the inside. So there’s equal strength, it just depends where you lie in the spectrum. I think for me to go and do very abrasive things would be hypocritical and dishonest because it’s not what I want to do and I don’t feel I need to do that. But I think I can reach people. A thirty year old American would probably respond more to me than he would to Spandau Ballet. I would appeal to a more loyal following and a more long term following than Spandau ever would.

CN: But why do Spandau Ballet and Duran Duran go to number one?

MJ: Why does The Sun newspaper sell more than The Guardian newspaper? That’s a circular argument, how can I answer that? I don’t know, it’s the lowest common denominator. I think people’s intelligence is insulted from a very early age basically. From radios and the media they’re given a very low standard and may form quite a low opinion of themselves. I also think with the way Western society works, people don’t link into their psychic capabilities and to their intuition. They just work on a very material level, both in news and music. They’re not allowed to develop their depth. People en masse seem one dimensional. Children are very perceptive, but through the schooling process it is beaten out of them. And so people are just conditioned to buy and accept this low quality product to perpetuate the manufacturers. It’s very economic and commercial – an extension of commercialism really. The problem lies with the education system more than anything else, in that intuition and the appreciation of good things of any beauty is beaten out of people. The people don’t necessarily have a low opinion of themselves, but they’re totally unaware of their capabilities. And to say the Sun sells more is the most obvious analogy between those two, isn’t it? The education system should be greatly revised, the teachers should be taught more, and there should be more development of the senses. It’s taken for granted that you’ve got other senses and intuitions and things like that. I know they exist, beyond any doubt, but very few people do – and people are just belittled and shrunken down to be manageable by governments. It gets down to being a very paranoid conversation about authority and stuff, but I don’t know if that’s true. I don’t know whether Mrs Thatcher is aware of the way things have developed. There’s just too much ignorance. But everything should be considered multi-dimensional instead of one dimensional. What I’m trying to do with my music is make it multi-dimensional with different layers of sounds, and make my voice up front so it’s like a head talking to you with certain things coming around behind you and emphasising certain things. Putting certain emotional accents on certain things and certain lines to reciprocate a response.

CN: Would you say it was more to illustrate the mood?

MJ: Yeah, I’m giving the mood, and whether the person receives it or not is up to the person who is listening to it. I just put everything into it, and sooner or later, I think people will. ‘You can lead a horse to water, but a pencil must be lead’. I think Stan Laurel said that.

CN: Can you see a move away from Some Bizzare?

MJ: Yeah, I’d like it to be very agreeable, I wouldn’t like to see lawsuits or anything like that’ cause I think that friendships, relationships, marriages and business deals run in circles. People are only together so long and then grow away from each other. It’s just naïve to think that you’re going to forge a life long alliance. I mean, how can you fucking align yourself, or form an allegiance which is life long? You might be growing very quickly and you might just grow out of somebody, or vice versa. You can’t do that. People have to be aware of their own individuality, their own independence. I’m just going to have a piss actually. I’ll carry on with this …

(Pause…returning from the toilet)

Some Bizzare, or Stevo in particular obviously, have been very instrumental to where I am now. He had real faith in me when other people didn’t. He took me to the record companies when everyone else was turning me down. So I’ll never forget that. But it would be silly and naïve to think that I’m going to be on the label forever, because The The, my own identity, is as strong as some Bizzare. Going on to the thing about marriage, I disagree with the establishment of marriage and I think it’s stupid to think that you’re going to be with somebody that long, because it means that you’re probably having to contain certain aspects of your personality which otherwise would develop. You’re having to contain them or compromise. Compromise doesn’t necessarily need to be a bad thing. Caring for others and giving to others is a good thing, but I think people should develop their independence – as far as looking after themselves. People are now becoming more independently minded, like males are, but so many men can’t cook, can’t look after themselves, can’t clean the fucking place they live in – and that’s really bad. If people are married, or living together, it should be where you both are independent people, you can totally look after yourselves, but you’re just coming together making life easier for each other and taking a turn in doing things. I mean, I do the housework, I love hoovering… Well, I don’t, but I quite enjoy it.

CN: How would you use your intuition….

MJ: In the studio? I just used it. I knew you were going to say studio.

CN: That’s because you’ve seen it written down. Or live?

MJ: Live? I’ll answer that first. Live, I find I’m either very meek, mild and shy – or very aggressive. I have to learn to get the balance so I can learn the projection and the dynamics in performance. I do feed from the audience, but I haven’t had that much experience. I’m still quite overcome by nerves, and it manifests itself in either being overly aggressive or overly shy. Either like, ‘Oh my God!’, or, ‘You bastards!. So as far as intuition goes live, I’m not confident enough yet to start feeding on that because I’m too overcome by nerves, it just blocks out the intuition. In the studio I use a lot of intuition and instincts, just spontaneity. I’m also one for believing every disappointment is for a good reason, i.e. if something goes wrong, or somebody that I want to work with is not available at that time. I think that’s obviously meant to be, I put an optimistic attitude on it, and by doing that, things fall into place. A lot of the time, just having the belief in your own intuitions and instincts, as well as yourself, helps things fall into some order. That’s not to say that it makes things all roses, because you get doubts and anxieties and they’re also very real, but it makes things more interesting. It gives you a bit of a superiority complex in a way, which is bad obviously, but you feel that you know something that other people don’t. You realise the amount of potential that exists there. You just feel things, and I feel very strongly about atmospheres. Sometimes I’m overcome by them actually, I might just see one thing, even a photograph, a scene out of a film, a smell, a piece of music, or a particular light, and it will bring something back to me so strongly that I’m…like on a drug or something – which is really weird. But I use instinct and intuition above intellect in my work because I’m not an intellectual. I’d like to become more intelligent and more articulate, but not to the detriment of my instinct. I think you’ve got to get the balance. I mean, I don’t know how to read and write music. Originally, it was because it was too hard. I now know that if I applied myself for a couple of months I could do it, but I don’t want to because I think that would make it a bit more sterile in a way, that would sterilise what I do. What I do is not based on what you can or can’t do, or what an augmented ninth or whatever is. Obviously that’s how music started anyway – people like cavemen banging and blowing and making noises. So why should music be shrouded in these laws of what you can or can’t do? I think you can do whatever you fucking want to do, whether it be what Neubauten do or whether it be what I’m doing. What I’m doing isn’t governed by laws. It’s governed by how I feel, what I want to do, chance, and keeping the balance. It’s critical to have the balance. Contrast, a very important thing in the stuff that I do, in my own life anyway. Without the white, you can’t appreciate the black.

CN: I think the Velvet Underground summed that balance up.

MJ: That’s why I love The Velvets, because of that contrast. You get something like ‘Heroin’ next to ‘Candy Says’. And it’s important to have that. To appreciate one you have to have the other. One of the philosophies of my work is to have that contrast and that diversity. I think that’s very important.

CN: Do you look at The The as being Matt Johnson?

MJ: Not really. I like to maintain my own identity outside of that, which is why I never wanted to use my solo name because that would mean it would take over your whole life really. For me, I try to develop a personality or life outside of that, because The The is a limited company now. So I see The The as being separate from Matt Johnson, most definitely. And the concept is developing all the time, everything fits into place nicely. I’m a great believer in destiny really, I believe there is a strong invisible beam throughout your life, but you can stray off that. And I’ve strayed off it a few times, and when you do, you go through extreme inner turbulence where you know something isn’t right. You get a disquieting feeling inside that you’re straying off your tracks, and you feel something is not right. And then you move back on them and feel at peace within yourself. I do believe in invisible currents and invisible forces without any doubt at all. I know it, because so many things have happened . When I was about thirteen or fourteen, I used to say to people. ‘Wow, isn’t it strange,’ and they’d go, ‘Huh?’ But now I don’t even bother because I accept it. With other people that I know, it’s like an unsaid thing, and maybe it should be more widely said because the potential is there for anybody.



THE END.