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Matt
Johnson
Heather Bell
IN CONVERSATION . . .
PART 3.
FALLOUT
FROM MELTDOWN
HB: What’s been the fallout from your Meltdown show
so far? The general reaction and the feedback. And did the
concert provide glimpses into TheThe’s future direction?
MJ: Let’s see. Overall the feedback so
far has been tremendously positive although I must admit it’s
also been passionately divided. Backstage after the show,
speaking to many old friends and people whose opinions I trust,
I felt a stronger reaction than any show I played on the whole
of the last tour and in fact any show I’ve played for
many years so overall I’m very pleased. And that it was
essentially a one off and put together with a minimum amount
of time and under pretty stressful conditions made it all
the more satisfying. The fact that it was a rare chance to
work with one of my oldest and closest friends, Jim Thirlwell,
made it extra special for me. He really is one of the most
criminally underrated talents of the last 20 years in my opinion.
He just gets better and better with age and the new work he’s
doing with Steroid Maximus and Manorexia is just stunning.
Also the fact that I was able to give an opportunity to a
very talented young film maker, Benn Northover, also meant
something special. Film and cinema have always been really
important to me and my vision of TheThe so I was very pleased
to have him involved. He’s really fresh and passionate
about what he’s doing and it’s great for me to work
with people like that. So in many ways it really was back
to the true spirit of TheThe. Evenings of collaboration and
experimentation is exactly what TheThe was always supposed
to be about but somewhere along the way it all just ... sort
of ... turned into a second rate rock group (laughs) ...
HB: Although many people thought it was far and away
the best TheThe show they’d ever seen and were frustrated
you didn’t stay on stage longer, others stormed out of
the auditorium in disgust and demanded their money back. It
seems there were also many heated discussions after the show
and even several reported instances of people actually coming
to blows. How do you feel about such a divided reaction?
MJ: Yes I heard about all of that. it certainly did polarise
opinions which is definitely a good thing in my book so I
must be doing something right. There were parallels in some
ways with the ‘Rock ‘n’ Roll with TheThe’
residencies at the old Marquee club in the early 80’s.
Those shows were highly experimental and blood ended up being
spilt there too. Of course Jim was onstage with me then as
well! But it does seem pretty bizarre to me though that people
should be punching each other and tearing each other’s
throats out after what was a fairly introspective, laid-back
sit-down set. I really can’t imagine how or why people
like that would even come to my shows. What did they expect?
That I’d be doing some kind of Greatest Hits package?
I’ve never been a crowd pleaser so why would I start
now? The whole point of Meltdown, or it used to be before
this year’s event, was that people would freely experiment
with new ideas and be encouraged to do so. Journalists seem
to want it both ways nowadays too. They criticised Bowie for
not being adventurous enough but then when an act he’s
invited actually does push the boundaries a bit they all run
off complaining and criticising that it’s too unconventional
and doesn’t quite fit into their narrow vocabulary. To
be honest I’ve been quite disappointed with just how
conservative certain sections of my own audience have turned
out to be as well. It’s as if some of them have never
really listened to my lyrics or even read an interview with
me. Perhaps some of them have been following the wrong group
all along? But I can’t apologise for not being the person
they thought I was.
HB: Well in spite of the almost hysterical ‘Dylan-goes-electric’
type shock that some fans felt, most of the press reviews
I read were actually very complimentary about the daring nature
of the show. Are you and Jim Thirlwell planning on working
together again? Will you be taking this show on the road?
MJ: If we did ‘take the show on the road’,
we wouldn’t or couldn’t commit to a long tour as
both of us have various other commitments although if the
right arts festivals across Europe come up, and if it didn’t
conflict with those other commitments, then yes we would certainly
consider it.
HB Would you be supplementing those performances with
a more mainstream type of show or tour?
MJ: I’m really not too sure at this moment in
time. I really don’t know if I’ll be taking my old
band back out on the road again to be truthful. I’m starting
to feel restless and that means it’s probably time to
up sticks and move onto fresh pastures. Meltdown was an experiment
and I was really happy how it went but I now have to sit back
and think about which things went well and which things didn’t,
but it’s highly unlikely that any forthcoming tour will
bear much resemblance to previous tours. The main thing for
me though is that I just don’t want to be in a ‘rock
group’ anymore. In fact I never did want to be in a rock
group and I don't know how I ended up being in one. No offence
to the other guys in my band because I love them as people
and they are truly brilliant musicians but there were times
on the NakedSelf tour, particularly towards the end, when
I would look across the stage and dismay at how TheThe had
turned into just another rock band. At festivals, particularly
when we were stuck up on the ‘rock’ stage, I’d
look enviously across to the various other stages and tents
where there were things of far greater interest happening
and where I’d personally have much rather been. I’ve
sometimes dismayed at the position I’ve found myself
in, playing flat-footed out-of-date versions of my own songs.
Now this is all my own fault of course and I’m not blaming
anyone else. It’s certainly not the fault of my musicians
who were doing an amazing job of playing what I was asking
them to play. The sad truth is that I never made a good rock
star because I never wanted to be one in the first place and
I’ve never, ever felt like one. It’s not something
I ever intended TheThe or myself to become. Things just sort
of drifted in that direction until I found myself trapped
in a game I could never win, or even properly compete in,
because that’s just not who I really am.
HB: But there were some really wonderful shows on the
last tour. Aren’t you in danger of throwing the babies
out with the bath water here?
MJ: There were some great shows and thankfully we do
have a lot of the tour recorded and filmed and I honestly
think the last band was the best one I’ve ever put together.
So yes although we did have a great time together and played
some amazing shows the point of it all is that I’ve been
drifting further and further away from who I really am and
from where I really want to be. I’m not sure anymore
what it is that other people want or expect from me but I’m
waking up and starting to slowly remember what I want and
expect from me and it’s most certainly not performing
boiled-in-the-bag versions of my own songs just so the audience
can listen to the CD’s live. Slowly turning into a Holiday
Inn covers band as I grow older was never on my agenda when
I was younger and is not my idea of what TheThe should be
about now. That would be like a living death to me. I’d
rather just quit now. If people really want to listen to the
CD versions of my songs then they should just buy the re-issued
versions and play them at home. That’s why I’ve
spent so much time and money lovingly restoring those versions.
I think they look and sound great, I really do, but as far
as live work goes then the only interest to me is trying out
fresh collaborations, experimenting with new songs and breathing
new life into old songs. I’ve never toured for the money
so what other reason is there for me to spend so much time
away from home if not to enjoy myself artistically?
HB: Hmm, well I won’t argue with that. So what
line up would you realistically tour with if you don’t
want to persevere with the old style band line-up and the
collaboration with Jim Thirlwell is limited to European arts
festivals?
MJ: Well, one of the ideas I’m now seriously considering,
and which has been suggested to me by both Jim and Lloyd Cole,
is doing a solo tour, not under my own name but just without
any backing musicians. It’s something I’ve never,
ever done in all the years I’ve been playing concerts.
Since I was ... what is it ... about 11 or 12 years old, I’ve
never really been on stage alone ... and it’s a strange
thought but it really excites me. Just an electric guitar,
a bare lightbulb and myself in an intimate venue ... alone
with my audience. But will there even be a tour or not? I
honestly don’t know at this moment. That’s a long
conversation I’ll be having with myself and my family
over the summer.
HB: That sounds like it could be very, very exciting.
It’ll be interesting to see how your audience react to
that one. You just mentioned Lloyd Cole. You sang some backing
vocals on his last album didn’t you? How did that come
about?
MJ: Lloyd and I used to have small studios/offices
down the corridor from each other at Harold Dessau studios
in downtown New York. It was like a sort of miniature, funky
Brill building really. They had a main studio, which is where
I recorded much of NakedSelf, and a nice rehearsal space,
plus also a bunch of rooms that people would rent for their
own use over the long term. It was a great place with a wonderful
atmosphere. Lots of wooden floors, high ceilings, dusty velvet
curtains and slow moving ceiling fans. Totally unsuited to
being a studio in a technical way but with a really warm and
inspiring atmosphere. It was my favourite studio outside my
own place in London. We all really, really loved it down there,
but sadly it’s since been demolished. There were quite
a few people in there at it’s height from the mid to
late 90’s and many of us would often pop into each other’s
rooms to borrow equipment or just have a chat and a cup of
tea. Lloyd and myself would often do that of a morning, bitching
and moaning about the state of the industry or Britain or
raving about some new piece of equipment or whatever. I sang
on his album first I think and then he returned the favour
by singing on GlobalEyes on NakedSelf, although his album
came out quite a bit after mine.
HB: Ok, time for some more questions from the forum.
Altpet: Have you had any thoughts of making a full
length feature film? Have you been asked to guest on any other
bands' work? Would you want to act in a film?
MJ: Well, we’ve made a few full length if not
quite feature films. My personal favourite is ‘From Dusk
'til Dawn’ directed by Tim Pope. I always preferred that
to the Infected movie myself. I also really like ‘In
The A.M.’ a brand new TheThe songfilm by Benn Northover.
Ian Peel put together an ambient sound collage of TheThe music
from over the past 20 years and Benn shot the film around
that. It was first shown at last month’s Cybersonica
festival at the I.C.A. and shown again at Meltdown. And I
LOVE the short songfilm that Suzanne has made to her German
version of Pillar Box Red. It’s called DrunkenMan and
is all absolutely bona fide footage of a ... drunken man!
She filmed this guy for literally about 20 minutes as he was
desperately trying to move 5 yards down the street. He was
so out of it he could barely stand up let alone walk. That’ll
be going up in our Cinema section very soon so you can see
that one for yourself. As far as guesting on other people’s
albums? I do get asked to produce or collaborate with other
people but I turn most of it down for one reason or another.
The last time I did guest on someone’s stuff, apart from
Lloyd’s last album, was probably Orang, which was the
ex-Talk Talk guys’ project. As far as acting? No, not
interested at all. I used to get asked quite a lot believe
it or not and was actually offered quite a few roles after
the Infected film but I turned them all down. It holds absolutely
no interest to me at all.
Webbie: When you were younger, I remember one of your
family saying you shaved your eyebrows off. Have you done
this since to yourself or anyone else.
MJ: Yes, it’s true. I did shave off my eyebrows.
I was about 14 at the time and it wasn’t a fashion thing,
copying David Bowie or anything, it was just that I was a
very curious kid and got carried away with a shaver one evening.
It was pretty embarrassing because the following morning,
having forgotten that I’d done it, I was having breakfast
and my dad said to my mum “Look, he hasn’t got any
eyebrows! He’s ill!” and I said sheepishly ... “Oh,
erm ... yeah .. they fell off last night” to which my
dad started freaking out thinking I’d contracted some
tropical disease but my mum, being sensible, just said “Oh,
don’t be daft, he’s just shaved them off”.
What was handy was that my nan was staying with us and she
helped me out before I went off to school by drawing on a
fresh pair. I had drawn on eyebrows until my real ones grew
back (laughs) As to whether I’ve done this to anyone
else since or whether it’s some kind of fetish, well
that will have to remain secret I’m afraid.
Bryn: What did you think of Man Utd last season?
MJ: United were pretty bad overall, particularly first
half. They had their moments with some wonderful attacking
football but I think there are several reasons for their failure.
Firstly, the fact that Fergie was going to quit must have
had a psychological effect upon the players. Also Steve McClaren
leaving plus Jaap Stam being sold and the inability to accommodate
Seba Veron in what was already Europe’s best midfield.
I’m also not sure about Jim Ryan as right hand man. He
always looks terrified standing next to Fergie. Best players
were Solsjkear, Van Nistlerooy and of course Roy Keane. I
expect them to do much better next year particularly if they
can sign one or two world class defenders. Also Nicky Butt,
having had such a great world cup may have found himself in
front of Veron (assuming he’s still there of course)
in the midfield pecking order.
Blind Lemon Pye: Is Andy Dog still painting and where
would one go to view some of his work? Also, who took the
decision to stop using his work on TheThe covers and why?
MJ: It was a completely mutual decision to stop working
together on the sleeves. We had actually stopped before Mind
Bomb but thought we’d give it another try for Dusk. At
times it could get a little tense between us so we thought
it better that we get on as brothers first and foremost. He
is still painting but hasn’t done record sleeves for
many years now. He did do a few others, for Zeke Manyika and
some others but nowadays he’s concentrating on more naturalistic
illustrations and paintings and he’s currently working
on a zoological series. His style has evolved to the point
of being unrecognisable from his earlier work. Personally
I think his stuff is much stronger now, certainly more rounded,
mature and expressive. As far as where to view his new work?
Well, we may have an upcoming issue devoted to Andy’s
new work
Puhzam:
1) Did Johnny Marr come up with those riffs by himself, or
did you come up with them (Helpline Operator, Violence of
Truth, etc...)?
2) Have you thought about releasing a live album?
MJ: Actually the two you mention, ‘Helpline Operator’
and ‘Violence of Truth’ were my riffs. The first
I played myself on the recording but the second I wrote on
keyboard and got Johnny to copy it. But the riff on Sodium
Light Baby was Johnny’s so overall on Mind Bomb and Dusk
there was a mixture between the two of us. I always thought
our two styles meshed together very nicely, as did Eric Schermerhorn’s
and mine. As far as releasing a live album? Well yes I’d
love to but I don’t want to give dates or make promises
as I have a habit of not making deadlines, but yes, there
will be some at some stage.
Breiner: “Which one of your own songs is your
favorite? (mine is Bluer than midnight)”
MJ: Hmmm, that’s like asking someone who their
favourite child is. Although Bluer Than Midnight is one of
my favourites too and probably one of the most overlooked
and underrated. To my mind it’s a far, far superior song
to something like Uncertain Smile which is probably the most
overrated piece of pap I ever penned. I was also very proud
of ‘Love Is Stronger Than Death’, ‘This Is
The Night’, ‘Heartland’, ‘Armageddon Days’,
‘Good Morning Beautiful’, ‘This is The Day’,
‘August & September’ ‘SoulCatcher’,
‘PhantomWalls’ and ‘WeatherBelle’.
Riquez: What do you want you want for xmas?
MJ: The same as every year. Health & happiness
for my loved ones and myself.
Onto part four >
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