Matt Johnson
Heather Bell
IN CONVERSATION . . .

PART 2.


HB: So, we were talking about your plans for Lazarus, with the current joint venture with Sony and this upcoming series of compilations and re-issues but who will be releasing future TheThe albums?

MJ: At this moment in time I’m really not sure how many future albums there will be ... although there will be be at least one, as I’m writing that at the moment! But as from May 2002 we’re working on a two year period of releases, both old and new, leading up to TheThe’s 25th anniversary. At that point I’ll decide whether to continue. Or at least how to continue. Everything has a life span whether it’s a person, a plant, a planet or a pop group, so we’ll see. At the present time though, with my colleagues at Lazarus, we’ve been looking to try and buy an old record company with an illustrious history in order to use as the main production company, the front if you like, and then go through either independent or major distribution. The music industry really is imploding at the moment and it’s very, very hard to make any kind of long term plans in this current, highly stressful environment. It’s hard to see beyond your own nose (laughs) it’s just a really, really weird time in the business right now.

HB: So what exactly do you mean by an old company? A company which was closed down or one which still exists but is old?

MJ: A defunct company. Something affordable but with gravitas. We’ve had a sort of shopping list for the various components of the company we’re trying to build. There are a few we’ve looked at. On the one hand a small film production company/facility, which we found with the small French company CineOla, but also an old and illustrious English label. One we’ve been fascinated by is Pye Records. Are you aware of it's history?

HB: I know the name of course and some of the acts but not really it’s history.

MJ: Pye was formed in the late 1950's from the old ? electronics company. Originally called Pye Nixa, I think, after it's founder, Nixon, it went on to become, along with EMI and Decca part of the triumvirate of great British major labels in the 1960's heyday of pop music. Like Decca it had also turned down the Beatles, but it went on to release some classic artists, most notably , Joe Meek's productions, The Kinks but also The Searchers, Sandy Shaw, Even Jimmy Page and David Bowie recorded early singles for the company. I think the main man there for a while was Tony Hatch. He actually wrote Downtown, a great song, which Petula Clark covered for the label. Also Pye International was very successful, although they tended to license their catalogue from US labels such as Warner Bros. Anyway, we were tracking the Pye situation for a while and were involved in negotiations to buy the rights to ...

HB: To buy the entire catalogue? That’s wildly ambitious isn’t it?

MJ: No, no, no (laughs) that would have been way, way too expensive and completely out of our league, besides that’s already been gobbled up by Castle Communications and re-issued via other companies. No, it was just the name and the logo we were after. I just love a lot of these old names from the past of British industry. In the car industry a lot of great marques fell by the wayside and died such as Triumph, Humber, Wolseley, Riley, Singer, Sunbeam, Talbot, to name just a fraction, and it's the same all across the board in every section of British industry. Look at the pub trade, which was my family’s business. Brewers such as Watneys, Coombe, Reid, Mann & Crossman, Trumans, Taylor Walker, Tolly Cobbold, Meux, Ind Coope, etc. all got taken over and killed off or turned into the brewery equivalent of an imprint, a bottle of beer! In my profession, many of the great record labels went the same way, either taken over by bigger companies and killed off or just downgraded into little more than imprints, such as the once great Decca Company after it was absorbed into PolyGram, which of course itself was absorbed into Universal/Vivendi. So I really love the idea of bringing back one of these great ‘marques’ Pye were part of Pye Electronics, who made products such as televisions, record players, headphones, tape recorders etc. the Pye name and logo was as ubiquitous in Britain in the 1960’s as Sony is today. It just always had a strong resonance with me. Anyway, for Pye, along with virtually every other aspect of British industry, terminal decline set in. Pye’s electrical division was absorbed by Philips and the record division was taken over by ATV who eventually changed it's name to PRT and then sold it on to Castle Communications, who gutted it for it's rich catalogue. That’s now owned by Sanctuary I believe. We were actually involved in negotiations recently and I thought we were very close to a deal but it turns out the person we were negotiating with didn't really have the authority to do the deal. Although he seemed to know all the players involved he really led us up the garden path because he didn’t have the authority to do what he was doing, so we were a bit annoyed by that as you can imagine. Wasted a lot of time and energy. But many people have been trying to buy the name and logo and bring it back over the years, not least Castle themselves, but we actually thought we may have had a major coup on our hands, but there you go. It just wasn’t to be. But it’s really sad that once proud and noble companies are nowadays taken over and completely gutted for short term gain and with no real thought for their history or what they once stood for.

HB: Are there any other labels you're interested in now that the Pye deal has fallen through?

MJ: We do have our eye on one or two, but the people who own the various rights either don't want to sell or are asking for ridiculous sums. Unfortunately, we have to live within modest means so a certain amount of wheeling and dealing goes on. Horse trading some of my rights for a share of their company. The sad thing is that 20 years ago many of these companies could have been picked up for virtually nothing but of course times change. Of course buying Pye, or at least the logo was a real long shot and pretty ambitious. I knew it would be hard as so many people had tried before but we thought we had a chance because of this particular person who said he had great relations with the people that now own the name and logo. Anyway ...

HB: What about CineOla? That deal has gone through though hasn't it?

MJ: Thankfully yes and I'm very happy about that.

HB: What's the background to this company?

MJ: I first became aware of CineOla years ago in about 1977 when, as a 15 year old I worked for De Wolfe Ltd, which is a company that specialises in library music for films, tv and advertising. They also had a small recording studio which is where I cut my teeth as an engineer, anyway, they used to be based in Wardour Street in the West End of London which was at the heart of the British Film industry, such as it was in those days. They released their own albums under the various imprints they owned such as Rouge Music, Hudson, Sylvester and De Wolfe itself. There were maybe one two others but I can't remember. They had a huge record warehouse off of Oxford street that they decided to clear out one summer and they got all their staff to help clear it out. Anyway, when we were clearing this place out I came across about 25-30 albums in a corner which were quite beaten up and about to be thrown out. I thought they were from another De Wolfe imprint at first but after looking at them I realised the packaging was much more beautiful and expensive than anything that De Wolfe had done, and I asked if I could have them, as they were going to be thrown away. So I took them home and was blown away when I heard them. It was incredible stuff. They were called 'Interpretations' . They were film music soundtracks but with an interesting twist. It was by various avante garde artists performing cover versions of each others works. All performed live on set while filming was going on! I found out later that the guy that ran the company was Bernard Blouseau. He’d started out as a sound engineer and had then started composing incidental music himself. In the early 1960’s he’d built himself a portable recording studio using high grade American audio equipment from manufacturers like Teletronix/Universal Audio, API, Fairchild etc.

HB: He built the studio himself?

MJ: Yeah, the sound quality he got was really beautiful so he must have known his stuff. Bernard was what nowadays we’d call a tech-head really. The original CineOla mobile probably seemed pretty compact at the time but it seems bloody huge by today's standards. You’d give yourself a hernia trying to drag that thing around, and he’s only a little fellow too (laughing) but that’s exactly what he did. He not only dragged it around the film sets of France but he also took it further afield by all accounts as he made about 10 albums of what we’d now call ‘World music’ in places like Africa, China, Japan and South America. Remember this is a couple of decades before Peter Gabriel and David Byrne started their own World music labels so it shows you just how ahead of the game Bernard was. I actually sampled from one of his Asian recordings many years ago. The loop at the start of my track ‘Out Of Control' is from one of those albums.

HB: CineOla has some kind of film studio as well doesn't it?

MJ: Well, I wouldn't go that far (laughs) not quite a film studio but some beautiful old analogue film equipment in flight cases, a bit old and worn out actually, but still some really great film making equipment. I can’t wait to get my hands on it. It needs servicing but it 'll be really useful for making some short films with. If I can figure out how to use it that is (laughs).

HB: What kind of equipment is it exactly?

MJ: Well, if you’re interested in the technical side I’ll gladly tell you.

HB: Yeah, sure go ahead, I’m sure our readers would like to know.

MJ: Ok., you asked for it (laughs) there's a few old Bolex 16mm cameras, h16 rex-3’s and rex-5’s, I think. Two late 60’s Bell & Howell Filmosound 16mm projectors, probably the 2500 series from the photos I’ve seen. A lovely old Steenbeck double plate 16mm flatbed editor, which is quite worn now but lovely. A couple of Uher portable tape recorders, a trunkload of accessories like lenses and mics plus a portable telecine suite which will probably be less useful because it’s old, late 70’s video technology, and that looks kind of crap though it could be useful in a lo-fi sort of way. I love old equipment anyway, but my own stuff is mainly old audio gear so this film stuff should be useful, if it bloody works that is (laughs) but more relevant is the CineOla digital mobile facility which is really, really good actually and almost new. In fact I rented it from Bernard for the latter part of last year’s world tour and recorded a bunch of shows including the Royal Festival Hall performance last November. It has 16 channels of Neve V-Racks (each channel includes Mic Pre, Filter, EQ, Gates and Compressors) two Sony PCM800 recorders, a pair of Eventide Orvilles, which are just outrageously good, the best digital effects processors ever built to my mind and some terrific mics as well as other gear. It’s all very compact and superb quality.

HB: Well, you really are interested in the technical side. Will you be releasing any of the concert recordings?

MJ: Definitely. It’s just all this tedious infrastructure building. Because I don’t have the security of the old major label things anymore, I have to make sure that everything is properly in place. All the right distribution deals etc.

HB: I recently tried to interview Bernard over the telephone for a future issue of This Is TheThe Day. He's an interesting man but one gets the feeling that he’s somewhat eccentric and very hard to deal with. Or maybe I’m reading too much into it?

MJ: Yes, I can see why you’d think that. Although he’s not well known at all his techniques and ideas have been really ripped off, unless there's an extraordinary amount of coincidence going on that is. You also have to remember where he’s coming from. His father Henri was quite well connected in Paris and I think there were high hopes within the family for Bernard. His influences were really the post WW2 independent filmmakers such as Bresson, Clement, Cocteau, Clouzot and Ophuls so he takes his ‘art’ very seriously. He was also a contemporary of the revolutionary 1960's French New Wave such as Chabrol, Godard, Truffaut, Resnais, Marker, Rohmer and Malle and of course with the post New Wave directors such as Tavernier, Blier and Berri. I know he knew many of them and I think he feels he missed the boat somehow. He used to contribute to the French film magazine La Noveau PhotoCinéma, but more technical type articles I think. He was never sure if he wanted to be a sound engineer, a musician, a producer or a film maker. I think he liked the glamour associated with being a director, or "auteur" I suppose I should say (laughs) but his passion really lay with twiddling knobs and thinking up crazy ideas for albums. I’ve seen a couple of his films and to be honest they are ok but not great. His albums though, are quite beautiful.

HB: So Bernard did make films as well?

MJ: CineOla did make some short films and historical documents and Bernard directed some of them. Apparently he directed a few films for Bleu the French cine glamour company but I can’t get a straight answer from him whether this was true or not (laughs) His real talent was music, both on the technical side and also ideas. Some of his ideas were outrageous for the time.

HB: I tried to ask him about his ideas and influences but he didn’t seem overly friendly when I spoke with him.

MJ: He is a bit like that when you first meet him but he’s ok. He’s pretty intense and comes across as a bit humourless and angry. It’s funny, although he’s getting old now he still looks like a cross between Roman Polansaki and Jean Genet and he's just as complex! (laughs) but he does have a fascinating history. Very innovative for his time. He used to take his mobile studio to the film set and get his musicians to perform while the actors were performing too. If you consider that most actors prefer performing in front of a live audience, well all the actors I know do, this sounds like quite a common sense way of going about film music They prefer real laughter and applause as opposed to canned laughter and applause, so it would seem a natural progression to actually act and respond to the music in the scene rather than acting blind. That’s my opinion anyway. I’m sure there are probably technical reasons to consider but it would seem a great way to work. The only other director I’m aware of doing this is Francis Ford Coppola on the film Rumblefish when Stewart Copeland apparently performed the soundtrack on the set with the actors.

HB: Wow, that sounds really inspiring. I've never acted but I could imagine the power you get from the music playing as you were performing. He does sound extremely imaginative. Was it Bernard's idea to do this or the directors.

MJ: Bernard's. He was the one who built the studio so he insisted on taking it onto film sets.

HB: Right. What else did he do?

MJ: Well, just his early use of the mobile recording studio to find the right recording ambience was groundbreaking at the time. People like Daniel Lanouis do it as a matter of course nowadays but you have to remember that this was 30 years ago!

HB: Yes, it's funny how much we take for granted nowadays. With the relentless surge of new technology and miniaturisation. I suppose location recording would have been more of a serious business in those days. What else can you tell us about CineOla?

MJ: Their cover version series, Interpretations. I've met only a few people over the years that knew it, French music journalists mainly , but not that many. The first person I met who was as big a fan of CineOla as me was Cally (TheThe manager) He had a few releases that I didn't have. His were in better condition too! all kept nice and neat and in those clear plastic covers (laughs).

HB: So what exactly have you bought with CineOla?

MJ: Well, the ownership of the name and logo, the portable film and audio studios, the right to sample freely from the catalogue and a share in the catalogue itself.

HB: So you don’t own the catalogue outright? I hear it contains some very rare Jazz recording from some of the great American Jazz artists under different names. Which musicians were they, did it include Mile Davis?

MJ: I wish! (laughs) but we really don’t know. We’re still trying to find out but the deal is more of a swap than an outright purchase. Bernard gets shares in Lazarus too and he keeps a controlling stake in his catalogue, which means that if we want to reissue it on CD it has to be agreed by him. Which is fine. All in all it was a very fair deal for both sides.

HB: How aware was he of yourself and The The when you approached him to buy CineOla?

MJ: Completely unaware. Although I spent some time over at the old StudioCineOla in Marseilles and played him the singles compilation, he actually helped with the ordering, and he said he recognised This is The Day, which was a huge hit in France. So I got a bit of begrudging acknowledgement. Also, he seemed to enjoy the Interpretations CD of ShrunkenMan that I gave him., but he’s pretty much unaware of most contemporary music since the mid 70’s. He lives a seedy life trapped in a time warp. I’m sure he won’t mind me sharing that with you (laughs)

HB: Why did he do a deal with you.

MJ: He’s been down on his luck and our deal was better than no deal. That’s the honest answer.

HB: As a massive Jazz fan I’m really interested in the catalogue. What are the chances of reissues?

MJ: Well Jazz only forms a small part of a very small catalogue. You have to remember this was a very small boutique label, lost in the sands of time and I'm uncertain of the market for it. Not counting the old cover version 78 rpm 10” discs there were only about 60 or so CineOla albums released. 20 albums of Interpretations, 10 ‘world music’ type albums, 15 sound effects LP's plus a few others. Could we afford to spend a lot of time and money on albums no one really wants? They're a rich source of sampling for me, although a bit scratchy but as for putting them out again? The albums I have are in bad condition, quite scratched and warped, so I need to get hold of the master tapes and this is proving hard. Bernard has a few but they are in terrible condition and need to be baked before playing and handled very carefully. He can't seem to remember where he's put the rest! (laughs) so it really all depends on Bernard getting his act together. We’d then have to have them baked and spend a considerable amount in digital remastering them with Howie Weinberg in New York. Howie’s a good friend of mine but he ain’t cheap! Even so, to remaster 60 or so albums from decrepit old tape ain't gonna be easy. We'll see.

HB: What will you be doing with CineOla then?

MJ: Initially we’ll be using CineOla to release a small catalogue of The The’s Music for Films, which, in keeping with the original company, is really for professional industry use. Volume 1 - Silent Tongue is just recently finished and will be released in a few months time. We will be making a fairly limited amount of these available through this web site only. Then there is the ‘35mm’ series - The Films Of TheThe - which will be digitally remastered and released on DVD/Surround Sound on CineOla through Sony. They’ll include the following films - Infected, Mind Bomber, Versus The World and From Dusk ‘Til Dawn plus a few other bits and pieces. I'm also serious about using the CineOla film equipment to start making some short TheThe films myself.

HB: Directing them yourself?

MJ: Maybe. Why not? Part of the problem in the past was the huge expense of making films and Sony only coughing up cash for an experienced director but we've got all this great film equipment now and It'd be a waste not to use it. I just have to buy the film stock and learn how to operate the gear. There’s also a handful of younger directors that I’d like to give a chance to.

HB: So what kind of films do you have in mind? Feature films or music videos?

MJ: No, not feature films and not really music videos more a combination of a short film with a music video. SongFilms I like to call them. I always loathed the term music video because mine were shot on 35mm film anyway, so I’ll call them SongFilms. That’s a nice term don’t you think? We’ve just shot the first film which is called ‘In The A.M.’ and directed by Benn Northover with a special mix of TheThe instrumental music by Ian Peel. It looks beautiful and young Benn has done a fine job. This will be available on a special DVD given away with the London Town box set. Bernard also worked with Gavin Bush on the short documentary/bio-flick with Johnny Marr interviewing me, which will also be available on the DVD with the London Town box set.

HB: But why the interest in all these old companies, like CineOla, Pye and Lazarus and their attendant complications? why not just start something brand new? Surely that would be easier and presumably less expensive?

MJ: Well, it all boils down to quirks and distortions in my personality I suppose. The same way I’ve always found old buildings far more fascinating than new ones, the reason I love cars from the 60’s and 70’s as opposed to new ones. Why an old worn smooth piece of stone you find on a beach has more appeal than a bland piece of concrete. An old label just has more gravitas, more interest to me with it's history of ups, downs, good times and bad. All the people that used to work there, all the artists that recorded for it, all the hopes, dreams and failures. It’s a living, breathing thing and much, much more interesting to me than something completely new.

HB: But it must take a lot of money?

MJ: No, it's imagination, time and effort and wheeling and dealing rather than money. Cally and myself were sat with a good friend of mine the other month, who's a very powerful music business executive in the US and he's starting a new record company and wanted suggestions for a name, and we said why not buy an old disused label with a history? and he had a horrified look on his face and said that he wanted a brand new name with a brand new identity. Most people actually want that. You’d be surprised at what you could pull off with just imagination and tenacity rather than cash. Most people think too linear but there are untold opportunities for people willing to take risks and roll up their sleeves and use their imaginations and instincts.

HB: So that explains your love affair with Lazarus?

MJ: Exactly. It’s a real company with real people and a real history.

HB: Now, what about Audio Verite? You've just showed me a couple of albums on that imprint. That was part of CineOla wasn't it? Couldn’t you use that as the record label?

MJ: No. no, no. (laughs) You see you’ve got to understand my personality. Everything has to be ‘just so’ and in the proper place. Audio Verite was a small spoken word label that Blouseau formed, again years ahead of his time with that one. He and a friend used a couple of portable Uher tape recorders and went around Paris recording poetry readings and political speeches, remember this was around the time of the student riots in Paris in the late 60’s, and things were very passionate and political. I'm not sure how many recordings there were as we haven't done the full inventory yet, I don't think it was a huge catalogue but I’ve seen a few albums. The few recordings I've heard are quite interesting but only really from a historical perspective and fuck knows what they're going on about anyway because I can't speak French although it sounds great, very passionate, pretentious and French. I can’t imagine anyone wanting to buy them though, and with a name like Audio Verite I can’t really use it as anything other than a documentary label can I? (laughs)

HB: Well I don’t know. I suppose you could, but will you be releasing talking books/spoken word through this label?

MJ: I'm not sure. I'm a huge fan of talking books. I've got hundreds of them, but I'm not sure if there's a gap in the market that would justify the expense and time it would take.

HB: I love talking books as well. What are your favourites?

MJ: Have you got time?

HB: Yeah, go on.

MJ: Let’s see. Well the first one I ever bought, and still one of my favourites is Tony Hancock's Sunday Afternoon at Home. I bought that, along with an Edgar Alan Poe reading, with some record vouchers one Christmas when I was about 13 and I've never looked back. I have literally hundreds upon hundreds. I also love cassettes by the way. I must be one of the few people that will actually be saddened by their demise. Other talking books I love include Alan Watts the East/West philosopher credited with introducing Zen Buddhism to the West, I've got boxloads of his. Studs Terkels, the great Chicago talk radio host , his collected interviews over the past 4 or 5 decades are great and again of historical value. One of my favourites of is interviews in Laurie Anderson, she has such a beautiful, calming voice, perfect to send you off to land of nod with. Alan Bennett's Talking Heads volumes 1 & 2 are a must. If you don't have them you should buy them. Let's see ... erm .. a box set of Orson Welles Interviews, they're pretty wonderful. Richard Burton reciting his favourite poetry, he had a wonderful rich and soothing voice. Dylan Thomas I also love. He has such a melodious and expressive voice. My favourite readings of his are Adventures in the Skin Trade., they're hilarious. There's a great library of lectures by Noam Chomsky on Alternative radio, a small company in Boulder, Colorado. I have dozens of those. They make great bedtime listening too! One of the greatest names in spoken word is of course Caedmon. They made some wonderful and historically noteworthy recordings of most of the major poets and writers of the day. They were a terrific, innovative company but eventually got absorbed into Harper Collins, which is part of Rupert MadDogs empire now isn’t it? but many of those early recordings are of great historical interest. People like Hemingway, Joyce, TS Eliot, Sylvia plath, have awful tinny little voices very dull and monotone, but they are wonderful nonetheless. I think the human voice is very soothing, well the right human voice, and at least to humans it is, I'm sure most animals, especially endangered species, find us quite grating! (laughs)

HB: It sounds like you have a passion for spoken word. Maybe you should pursue it?

MJ: I may do. If I can find the right subject matter and some people with rich soothing voices. It's a great soporific at bed time. I just need to get things in order first and not allow myself to wander down any more cul de sacs. It takes me long enough as it is, I'm far too easily distracted by little hobbies I take up that I become in danger of forgetting about music, so running a spoken word label could become a dangerously time consuming hobby but you never know, I’ll certainly give it some thought now you've mentioned it.

Onto part three>