Photo by Jack Monsoon

Matt Johnson
Heather Bell
IN CONVERSATION . . .

PART 1.

I recently caught up with Matt at the Lazarus building, the former Victorian department store close to London’s square mile that serves as his company’s headquarters. Although it was a sunny, if chilly, winter’s day outside, inside TheThe’s womb-like basement studio, all was hot, dark and spooky. Oil lamps turned and incense burned as small red lights from the various banks of equipment blinked on and off through the smokey darkness. Matt, in cheerful mood, was busy sitting at the mixing desk compiling Silent Tongue, the first volume of The The’s film music for CineOla, the French soundtrack company newly acquired by Lazarus. I sat at the back of the room on an old leather sofa sipping a mug of fresh coffee listening, watching and waiting for him to take a break.

I should explain, whilst I’m sitting here waiting, that I first became aware of Matt’s music whilst assistant editor at Cinema Magazine in the early 1980’s. I’d often listen to his early albums over the office stereo system as foreign films played silently on my nearby video monitor. I was struck then by the cinematic nature of his music and surprised that it hadn’t been used in more films. Hopefully this new release will remedy that.

I didn’t actually get to meet Matt or the band until a decade or so later, following a wonderful performance at a packed-out Barrowlands in Glasgow. The The were touring in support of the Dusk album and Johnny Marr had just made a surprise guest appearance. I managed to blag an interview backstage with the sweat soaked pair for a local newspaper I was working for at the time. We hit it off really well and so I was very happy and flattered to be approached to write the liner notes for Silent Tongue and to conduct a series of interviews for this new site.

This following conversation is the first in an ongoing series. The questions are a combination of those sent in by readers/viewers of the Letters To The Editor forum, plus of course many of my own.

HB. Well Matt, as agreed, this is the first in an ongoing series of conversations that you’ll be having with me and various other people for This Is TheThe Day. I’ll be asking a combination of my own questions with some of the ones we’ve received in the Letters to the Editor forum.

MJ: Nice to see your cheerful face on this cold afternoon in London Town.

HB: Thanks, likewise. Now, I’ll start with some questions from the forum first.

MJ: Ok.

J.M. Howard: “How long does Matt intend to keep working? Are we going to see him grow old but stay original and relevant in his music. Would he be like the Stones, still performing and attracting crowds into his 50s?”

MJ: Erm ... Well, original and relevant are relative terms. Everyone wants to feel that they’re still relevant but relevant to who? To their audience? To themselves? Tastes and perceptions change constantly and going in and out of fashion is as inevitable as day becoming night so all I would hope is that I’m still relevant to myself and healthy and energetic enough to record and perform if I still feel the passion for it. Rather than the Rolling Stones, who are pretty much just businessmen in my book. I look for inspiration to someone like John Lee Hooker. He was playing shows right up until a few days before he died and obviously because he still really loved doing that more than anything else.

Bryn: What is the writing process for you Matt; from an initial idea to what we hear on the records?

MJ: Well, the writing process usually involves various stages. From playing around on a guitar, trying out combinations of chords and just singing random melodies, skat vocals, gobbledygook, into a small portable tape recorder. From there I’ll move to 4 or 8 track where I’ll refine, add and subtract ideas, playing with the key, tempo and time signature. Working out the bass parts, drum parts etc. and playing with other elements of sound. The lyrics really exist in a separate space until later on when I’ll start going through my lyric books, I keep a bunch of them, to match up ideas and words with the melodies and atmospheres of the demos. Sometimes songs will come out fully formed but, sadly, I’m not one of those songwriters that can just bang off songs like that. I have to work painstakingly over time constantly refining and polishing. But there is another type of track like Good Morning Beautiful or Boiling Point which are created within the studio itself as a result of a lot of experimentation.

Bryn: Do you ever worry that you will not be able to perform material live that is faithful to the recording and do you think about this when you are writing and/or in the studio?

MJ: As far as live work goes, yes I used to worry about not being able to perfectly recreate the recordings on stage but I got over that. I figure that if the audience are so attached to the originals they can always put on the CD. I also figure I should have the leeway to be able to experiment and twist the songs round any way I want. It also makes it more interesting for me on the road and also when putting together a new band to let them express themselves rather than just being slaves to the original. That’s why the versions of the songs sound quite different on each of the three world tours I’ve done so far, and will certainly do so on the next one.

Bryn: I am wondering about the bass I hear on Dusk. it's almost more of a feeling than a sound. I have heard of this thing called a DBX 120XP harmonic synthesizer. Could this be it?

MJ: I can’t give away TheThe’s trade secrets (laughs) but you’re right, we did have a DBX sub-harmonic synth in the studio although that’s not all. There was also some of my ‘special sonic ingredients’ poured on to give that ultra-lo ‘feeling’.

Bryn: Is there a particular aspect to The The that you enjoy most? (i.e. writing, recording, playing live, break, etc.)

MJ: I enjoy most aspects of TheThe but probably the actual songwriting itself is the best as that is the most personal, pure and when feeling most connected to the ‘muse’ - when inspiration does choose to appear! It’s really one of the most beautiful and fulfilling experiences I know, and if I think about it, is the main reason I do the job. All the stuff after this is gravy. But all the other aspects have their compensations too. Being in the studio with people I like and watching the songs come to life. Being on the road and having fun with the band and crew and seeing the audience face to face with all the fun and excitement that entails. Even travelling around the world talking to journalists. They're not all bad, and you do meet some interesting and thoughtful people.

Bryn: How has the internet and, in particular, thethe.com changed what you do?

MJ: Let’s see. The Internet hasn’t really changed what I do at all at this moment in time but I’m hoping through this website to eventually develop a much stronger relationship with my audience around the world. It’s real early days for this new site but we’re just concentrating on setting things up properly for an influx of new members when the singles compilation is released.

Blern: In what ways has Frank Zappa influenced you, musically, business savvy?” and “With me being the Dad of a 4 year old wonderful girl daughter, I'm curious: How has becoming a father affected you and how you feel about the world?”

MJ: Well, to tell the truth I was never a huge fan of Zappa’s music but just a big admirer of what he stood for. I certainly respect the way he set up his career and business and in fact believe he provided a blue print for many of us to follow, particularly now the Internet has made it more viable. Yes, Fatherhood is incredible, and being present at your own child’s birth is one of life’s peak experiences. The happiest day of my life so far. I don’t know if it’s changed my views on the world but it’s brought forth a flood of childhood memories and altered my perspective about myself and others close to me.

Vampirate: Are you happy with the way your stance against the 'corporate monster' is going? “

MJ: Well, like the much publicised ‘War Against Terrorism” the ‘War Against The Corporate Monster’ will be a long drawn out affair (laughs) I see the establishment of this new website as a small beachhead from which to launch larger attacks in the future, but yes, I feel perversely optimistic.

Doug Walker: What musicians would you like to work with that you haven't yet had the opportunity too?” and “What CD finds its way into your stereo the most often?”

MJ: Hmm. The first question is bit tricky. There’s really not many names that spring to mind. I’ve worked with most of the people I wanted to work with and there’s probably some I haven’t heard yet that I’ll probably love. Off the top of my head a duet with either PJ Harvey or the singer from Cat Power would be nice. As for the second question, well that is without doubt a Tony Scott recording from the 1960’s, Music For Zen Meditation. That CD goes everywhere with me. In a hotel room I place dark red silks over the lamps, light my Tibetan incense, put on these wonderful 1960’s recordings of Japanese flutes and drift off into outer space.

Stephen Isley: A personal one first if you don’t mind, “How much money do you make on tour?” and "What exactly is Lazarus? I’ve seen it on your record sleeves for years but I'm not sure who or what it what it is?”

MJ: Dear, oh dear (laughs) If only people realised that every time I walk onto stage it’s the equivalent of me having stopped at the ATM on the way to the venue, drawing out a thousand dollars from my personal account and then throwing it to the audience, I’m serious. And remember I play over a hundred shows per tour so that gives you some idea. Touring costs a bloody fortune, unless you’re a mega group that sells truckloads of merchandising and attracts corporate sponsorship or you’re a band that travels in a tiny van and sleeps rough and you do all the roadying yourself. Otherwise you invariably lose money. This can even be on top of the recoupable tour support you may be lucky to receive from a record company. So no, I don’t make money touring and in fact I come off the road virtually broke after every tour and with my accountant and bank telling me off, although I do live in hope (laughs)

HB: And Lazarus? You’ve been involved with that for quite a number of years now haven’t you?

MJ: Lazarus is a very old company dating back to the mid 19th century. Formed by Abraham Lazarus, who was a tailor, he built the company up to encompass a chain of department stores across East London, including Liverpool Street, Bishopsgate, Houndsditch and Shoreditch. His sons and grandsons continued building the company up to include a small manufacturing base to go along with the service industry side of the business. A certain amount of decline set in years ago, because they have a very old fashioned way of doing business, which although inefficient, I happen to love. I initially got involved because I bought into one of their old department stores in East London, this place actually, I fell in love with it and it had a lot of the facilities I was looking for, such as recording, photographic and video studios. Money was tight for me, as usual, so a fair degree of wheeling and dealing went on. I just didn't have the cash at the time so I agreed to swap shares in my old company, TheThe Music Limited, for shares in Lazarus. The relationship has just developed from there to the point where I’m actually signed to Lazarus as a production company as well as them being involved in the publishing side too.

HB: But you’re now one of the owners?

MJ: Yes, and I’m fairly involved in things now too. It was my suggestion to get Cally involved (TheThe manager) to help run things on the music side. He’d had a lot of experience from all parts of the industry, including management with Julian Cope, the Nick Drake estate, A&R for PhonoGram and Art & Design for Island Records and Antart amongst many other things so he seemed to be someone that Lazarus would like. They did and were quite happy to get him involved.

HB: What are the plans with Lazarus?

MJ: Well, as I spelt out with that TheThe Versus The Corporate Monster piece we find ourselves with a very changed business. It’s disconcerting really so although I don’t want to be signed up to a major label again, given all the inequities involved, but I do need some kind of infrastructure and vehicle through which to keep expressing myself and to keep working. So at Lazarus we’ve been drawing up a blueprint for a multifaceted company that would allow me to keep my 'artistic independence and freedom' but still be able to fund the various projects I want to do. So we’re trying to put together a small group of companies, tightly woven and inter layered but each taking care of a different aspect of what we’re trying to do. It’s basic time consuming infrastructure building. Remember from leaving Sony to joining Universal and then leaving Universal to sort of rejoin Sony there were three vast amounts of legal paperwork and costs not to mention the colossal amount of time it wastes. I’m trying to put into place a stable set up that will enable me to maintain my independence but also fund future projects. I just don’t want to involve myself again in a major label situation but if I did it would have to be different to the situations in the past , with me retaining ownership of rights. I have so much material to release. I know I’ve gone on about it in the past, much to the frustration of many members of my audience, but for a start there are the three unreleased albums, Spirits, P.O.D and GunSluts as well as as hundred of hours of live recordings, demos, alternative versions, instrumentals and film music pieces that I never really had an outlet for during my Sony years due to the restrictive nature of my old contract, which meant that unless the album I delivered was all new material with vocals it wouldn’t count and you wouldn’t get paid an advance, so why bother handing them anything? Besides I own the rights to this stuff so I thought I’d just wait and do it myself. The things is, that I have such a huge archive of tapes that it’ll take months to go through and log it all properly. But the reason I seem so cheerful is that I'm too excited about the future to be bitter about the past.

HB: TheThe Versus The Corporate Monster, was very widely circulated across the Internet, seen by many people and drew a huge response. I know you’ve left the Universal corporation and you’re working again with Epic/Sony at the moment but what is your current recording contract status? And how does that relate to the Corporate Monster statement.

MJ: Well, as I’ve just explained, I’m actually signed to Lazarus, which now acts as my production and publishing company, but you’re right in that I am currently working with Sony again for a while. Before I left them I agreed to come back, record some new material and, in a joint venture with Lazarus, oversee the compilations of CD’s and DVD’s as well as remastering and repackaging the entire back catalogue. The truth is, although I tried to buy the rights to my back catalogue, they refused. They still own the material and could and would do with it what they wanted to, and probably very badly and cheaply too, unless I came back and oversaw the whole project. But it’s actually nice to be back and in all honesty I never really wanted to leave Sony. I was just very unhappy about the terrible deal I was on, but there‘s an inherent unfairness about the entire music industry generally. It really doesn’t matter which label you go with as the deals are awful and unfair everywhere. If you are going to work with a major It boils down to who you like working with. In this respect there is no comparison between Sony and Universal. As for what happens after this year? Well, we’ll all have to wait and see how things pan out but one thing’s for sure is that I’ll be retaining rights to all my recordings. I’d never again sign the kind of deals I did when I was a kid.


End of Part 1.

Onto part two >