This Is The The Day - Interviews

Matt Johnson
Johnny Marr
IN CONVERSATION . . .

PART 6.

J. How do you feel about 'Naked Self'? Are you happy with that album?

M: I was very happy with it. It think it’s probably my best album to date, it certainly got the best reviews I’ve ever had but It was just unfortunate about all the politics that surrounded it. Sony came over to New York to listen to the album and they were alarmed at how aggressive it was and were saying to me “Oooh, the industry has changed.” and all that sort of stuff. To be honest it was a long period between albums, 7 years? and as usual I was taking way, way too long. When they heard the finished album they didn't really like it but after 17 years on the label I was finally out of contract by that point anyway. I was sort of negotiating for a new contract with them and they kept saying to me “Could you just make it more commercial? Write some more singles for it” and I just kept saying “No, I'm really happy with it, I want to keep it as it is.” It was a stalemate. So I just said “Look, if you don't like it then I really want to leave” which of course I did and in retrospect I don't know if it was the right move or not (laughs) ... the problem was I went out of the frying pan and straight into the fire. I went to Universal, or a subsidiary of Universal, which was Nothing/Interscope Records, who claimed they loved the record but ... the unfortunate thing was that shortly after I signed, that division of the company was basically castrated. Seagrams took over Universal, then they bought Polygram and merged that into it, so there's this massive congealing conglomerate with people being fired left right and centre. Bands being dropped like hot potatoes. No one knows the fuck what’s going on and there was a bright new policy sent down from the clowns at the top. Do not invest any money at all in any records that aren't sure-fire-commercial-hits (laughing) ... boost shareholder profits by making huge cuts rather than by investing. So they just cut the funds on my album and many others like it. The air supply was switched off just as the album was released. It was a very difficult and demoralising situation. NakedSelf received the best reviews of my career world-wide, so we got off to a fantastic start and I committed myself to a very long world tour, 14 months on the road, which I ended up funding myself because the tour support was cut. There was no one from the record company supporting us or even coming to the shows. Hilariously, more people from Sony would turn up at the shows than from Universal. It was pretty sad really. But I kept the tour going out of my own pocket because I believed in the record so much. I just thought “Well okay, I'll just have to back it myself'” which I couldn't really afford to do. As you know, touring is really expensive. And ultimately I just found myself more and more marginalised, because radio's changed - particularly in Britain - it's all little boy and girl bands and inane dance music and it's very difficult to reach an audience when you find there's no absolutely outlets there for you. But at least I stood by it.

J: The tour was really successful wasn't it?

M: Yes and when I think about it, It was pretty amazing to come back after seven years of silence with absolutely no record company support and no radio play and stay out on the road for 14 months. We toured America and Europe three times during that period and played some decent venues. In London we played the Royal Festival Hall, Brixton Academy and Shepherds Bush Empire, and so by the end of the tour and after a huge amount of work, we’d managed to reach quite a lot of people. It was a miracle really and all credit to the band, crew and management around me. But sadly, the record company wouldn’t come to the shows and wouldn’t even send NakedSelf to radio so we had the bizarre situation where radio stations in America were contacting us directly and asking for copies of the record (laughing) the record company just wouldn’t give them copies! It was surreal. So I just went on the attack. It was quite funny in the end because I was turning up at radio stations and they'd say “Oh, we've just had Universal on the phone saying “Please don’t let Matt talk about the record company.” That's all they were interested in 'Don't make us look bad'. So of course I really let them have it then, over the airwaves and over the Internet I circulated some pieces I’d written about the situation to try and warn other bands about what was going on there. It was effective in a way. Billboard ran the story three times and I was on NPR and a few other high profile radio stations a bunch of times and was getting asked on to countless panels and tv shows but I eventually decided that I didn’t really want to get too bogged down into becoming a spokesman for all the woes of the recording industry so I withdrew from all that stuff once the tour had finished.

J: You mentioned that radio has changed and I've heard that a lot, particularly in the last few years, but it occurred to me that in my career, and I think our careers, that there's people like us who, for want of a better term are 'left field' with a vaguely commercial sound, that radio has never had it's doors wide open to us in the first place. People in radio now talk about the old halcyon days of when I was ... when The Smith's were going ...

M: But you couldn't get on the radio then ...

J: You couldn't get on the radio then anyway. We got on the radio - and I imagine it would be the same for you - because people were buying the records. Not the other way round! So I think it's a little bit of a false idea, particularly your label asking you to change 'NakedSelf' in order to fit some criteria, when even in your early days you were having to bang the doors down to get on the radio anyway.

M: You know you’re absolutely right. It was always demoralising when you'd go on these promotional tours in the 80’s around Canada, America, Australia, Western Europe - American radio nowadays is abysmal but in those days there was these great college stations and genuinely alternative stations - where bands like The Smiths and The The would get played a lot. And what I could never figure out was all these English groups being played to death around the world but who just couldn't get played in their own country. You’re right, it’s true. The BBC and Radio 1 did really shut us all out even then.

J: Did you feel bitter when you moved to New York? Did you feel a certain amount of bitterness towards the UK?

M: In all truthfulness there was an element of that probably.

J: And sadness or.....

M: I suppose a bit. But I couldn’t wait to escape from this mentality in Britain, this sarcastic, aggressive, destructive attitude which is prevalent throughout much of British society. It's an island mentality I suppose. A very aggressive cultural quality that forces people to grow a hard shell to survive it. But when you live outside of England you really don't want to be like that, you really don’t want to be that aggressive or defensive all the time, so you try to rid yourself of it somehow, and then you come back to the country and you realise you've got to put the armour back on again. To protect that soft, sensitive underbelly (laughs)

J: Right now, you're considering moving back. You've moved out of New York haven't you?

M: I’m going to live in Europe for a few years.

J: That’s between Spain, Sweden and England. Are there any things that you're looking forward to reacquainting yourself with about British culture that still exist?

M: I suppose like most people, whatever country you live in you develop a filter system and just shut out the stuff you don't like and that's what you have to do, but it's odd going back to London. I feel quite alienated there. I really feel like a foreigner now. It’s not unpleasant, it’s just odd.

J: That's what I do, that's why I've been able to stay in England. There are things about it that I really like but the things that I don't like, as you say, just filter them out because there's no escape from it otherwise. So do you feel like you've got a lot left to achieve?

M: I feel dissatisfaction with almost everything I've achieved. I’ve always just wanted to improve as a songwriter, so there's dissatisfaction when I listen to old material and just know that deep down I could’ve done much better. I've always had this terrible feeling of dissatisfaction. As if I've only just barely scratched the surface. And that drives me on ...

J: That’s a good thing in a way though ...

M: In one way, but then you start to think “Well hang around, I'm 40 now, I've never achieved anything close to what I wanted to achieve or thought I could achieve.”

J: Artistically are you talking about? But isn't that a good thing?

M: I suppose it is good thing in one way, in that it makes you try harder and keeps the old ego in check but then you just start to worry that you don't really have the ability ... that maybe it's like being a sportsman, knowing how the game should be played but the limbs don't quite move fast enough or something. You know, I write lyrics that I'm proud of and then I think “No, I can do better. I can do better.” It's good in one way but there comes a time when you start thinking “Maybe, I'm just never really going to be able to satisfy myself. Maybe I’ve just been fooling myself all along.”

J: When we started talking, you were talking about Punk being more for your older brother's generation. I felt the same way, I didn't have an older brother but I felt it was definitely for the generation before me, and one of the things about punk in the UK was that, as I remember, it was very, very political. It was as if lines were drawn. Quite unlike anything before or since. Whereby if you were part of this ideology then you had to reject a whole load of other ideology. To me that seemed to hang over our generation like an albatross. But by the early '90's a new generation had come along with this idea that anything goes. For example, the idea of a new age traveller ...or say someone who followed the Prodigy, not to generalise about people, but there you've got someone who looks like a punk but lives like a hippy. That iron like dogma that we grew up under seems to have crumbled in a way, particularly in the music press, which was very, very powerful when we were starting out. I saw an interview with Richard Ashcroft recently and he was saying that a group like Led Zeppelin, and other bands that became deeply unfashionable because of punk, were actually more dedicated and single minded than nearly every single punk group on the planet. They didn't release singles and didn’t play the record company game and all those sort of things.

M: Most of the punk groups, with a handful of notable exceptions, were clones, they dressed in the uniforms of non-conformity and the music was virtually indistinguishable.

J: What I'm leading to is that one of the main creeds of punk was that you were a spent force when you were older than 23 or certainly older than 30. Now as we know, pop culture has changed massively and I personally feel like some of the people I look up to, people like Aldous Huxley, did great stuff when they got older ...

M: And in music, John Lee Hooker did.

J: John Lee Hooker, exactly.

M: But there has always been a lot of people that became involved with pop bands, or in pop music, as a short term fad before they found a proper job and settled down. But there are others of course where music is a compulsion and a means to a lifetime of expression. There's plenty of examples of great musicians, songwriters and singers who carry on up to their 70's ... and even beyond.

J: Do you have that in mind for how you're going to proceed?

M: I think so, but it's hard to know isn't it? We're at a very interesting period in time right now. If things continue on their current trajectory then huge swathes of the music industry as it stands face annihilation. That may sound extreme but we’re going to see studio after studio close. Record company after record company merge or collapse. Band after band split or cease to function. There’ll be probably even less diversity, but maybe more, who knows? Blank CD sales will soon eclipse regular CDs and what bothers me is that there’s a generation of people being brought up to assume that all music is just free. That somehow, magically, the work that musicians create is not really work at all and therefore not worthy of payment. That disturbs me. And I really resented the old system, where the record companies would literally grab almost 90% off the top for starters and the musicians would get completely screwed into paying for virtually everything out of their puny 10-15%. But to replace one archaic and unfair system with a brand new groovy digital unfair system? And people justify it by saying “Yeah, but the record companies are greedy anyway, why give them money?” Yeah, the record companies are greedy but don’t throw the babies out with the bath water. Don’t slaughter the geese that lay the golden records (laughs)

J: Why don't you just get a load of free music to compensate?

M: Free music? Well how is that going to help pay my expenses? It's not that much different in my mind to going into a restaurant you've always gone into, eating your dinner and then saying to the owner “Well I've decided I'm not going to pay you anymore, food should be free.” And the guy that's had this little restaurant for 20 years has to close down because everyone has decided they’ll eat there for free. And you know what it's like in our industry. The signed ‘artistes’ get whacked every step of the way. Out of our little 10-15% we pay for everything. Recording costs, videos, tours, lawyers, managers, accountants, session players. The list is endless. Sadly I can't live on other people's music, charming though it may be (laughs) but sure, if people want to give their music away for free then great. I have no problem with young bands wanting to give their music away for free. Good luck to them. If they've done it in their bedroom, it hasn't cost them any money and that's what they want and they have alternative means of paying for their food, heat and rent, great, go ahead. All I’m saying is that it should be consensual. That the people who create it should be able to choose how it’s distributed and even if it is distributed. If I'm spending $100,000 or $200,000 and sliding into the red to make a record that I really believe in, of course I want to get paid for it as I've spent two or three years of my life working on it. If I was fixing cars or painting buildings I'd expect to be paid. Wouldn’t you? Wouldn’t anyone?

J: Yeah, I think the point you brought up that a lot of people miss is that musicians do go into the red for it.

M: Most of us spend most of our careers in the red, and most people don't realise that. During this last tour, the amount of journalists that are completely unaware of the basic economics of the industry shocked me. There's this misconception that most musicians with a profile are rolling in it. Every tour I've ever done has cost me a fortune out of my own pocket.

J: How do you think you're going to proceed then? What's the solution?

M: Generally the solution is for musicians to start owning the rights to their own creations. Only from that point can a truly fair system be built. Personally, I’ll be working through my own company, Lazarus. Initially we’ve been working on a joint venture with Sony to oversee the remastering and repackaging, or resurrection (laughs) of my entire Epic catalogue. Then we’ll be looking at all the options of who to work with next for the new material I’m currently recording. Whether to do short term licensing deals territory by territory, do it ourselves through the website or grant Sony, or another major, short term licenses. We’re having talks with a number of people at the moment but after the disastrous liaison with Universal it’s absolutely vital that I get it right this time around. I just cannot afford another mistake like that. I’m also intending to develop more collaborative efforts. Back to the roots of what TheThe was about really. I’ll spend some time building up the CineOla film soundtrack library too with some instrumental collaborations with a bunch of people I have in mind.

J: You've always had loads of ideas for doing stuff like that....

M: So now I really want to do it, and I think now is the right time to do
it. I own a couple of studios, the StudioCineOla mobile digital facility plus a commercial studio complex in London so I can pay for the recordings, but it's time to own them too and have complete control. So the creative side of things won’t be a problem but sadly I think the general state of the industry will be. How can people like us reach our audience?

J: What do you mean?

M: When we started out, being in a band was a comparatively unusual thing, I know it was at my school, you were seen as a bit of an oddball and slightly outside of things. Nowadays every other person you meet has got a studio at home and is in a band. It’s almost compulsory. It’s getting to the point now where there are more people on the stage than in the audience! You can’t breathe. So how do you cut a pathway through this vast overgrown jungle of ‘product’ and make yourself heard? Of course it’s not just music it’s everything. There’s an all engulfing tidal wave of useless information, from all these superfluous columnists and ‘opinion’ editorials in newspapers and magazines to multi-channel-tv to assembly-line films and music. Does the world really need any more popular culture? No it does not. Does the world really need another TheThe record? Most certainly not. So I can’t help thinking to myself that maybe the best thing for many of us would be to just keep our mouths shut, make music only for our own personal enjoyment and just enjoy a relaxed life while filtering out all of the bullshit.

J: Mmmm. Well, one thing that has changed for you over the last 10 years, since you started touring the 'Mind Bomb' album, is that you now know you can perform, that you've got a lot of material to play and that you can assemble a band fairly quickly. It's very much a big part of what you do now, live performance ...

M: Yeah, it is, but I don't know how many more tours I want to do. Maybe I’ll never tour again. I just really don’t know at this point. I do enjoy touring, I have a lot of fun and I love the camaraderie between a good band and crew. You get to meet some great people and the sensation of constant movement and never quite knowing what will happen next is something I really enjoy but on the negative side it's very expensive, it's time consuming and without the full support of a record company with radio play etc. it can sometimes feel like you’re fighting a very bloody and losing battle. I just may want to spend more time in the studio. It all depends, I don't really want to predict the future because I just don't know how things are going to go. Never say never and all that.

J: You've written some new songs recently though haven't you? 'Pillar Box Red' and you've redone a version of December Sunlight from 'Naked Self'.

M: Yes, on this compilation there aren’t any tracks directly taken from 'NakedSelf’ but we did re-record December Sunlight with our old comrade James Eller producing. It was a song I co-wrote with another one of my former guitarists, Eric Schermerhorn. Some more songs from NakedSelf will probably appear on Volume 2 of the singles compilations. 'PillarBoxRed' I'm very happy with. I really think it's one of the best songs I've written in a long time. It's descended from 'Heartland' and is about Britain. I think being someone who's lived in a lot of different countries, and moved around a lot, I feel very conflicted about my roots. I feel very drawn back to England all the time, and there's a lot I miss about England. But whether it's nostalgia for something that doesn't exist? or never existed and is just a sort of fantasy? Whenever I go back, there's stuff I love about it, stuff I hate about it. It couldn't have been written from any other perspective but from someone who's lived outside the country for about 10 years I suppose. It’s just about the British mentality. There's just this residual anger, this passive aggressive, or aggressive aggressive behaviour, where people are really able to zone in on each other's weak points and just really get under the skin and wound each other. And then there's the people that don't want to admit they're wounded, and they'll just hit back verbally, and it's part of the culture but it's dysfunctional really, when you go to other countries you get some perspective and realise that.....it's a pretty fucked up country I think, in a lot of ways.

J: It's a beautiful song though.

M: Thank you.

J: For all it's pertinent criticism, it really is a beautiful song and I think people are really going to like it. It was produced by Clive Langer and Alan Winstanley. How did you like working with a producer after all this time?

M: It was odd and I found it difficult to sit still, so I ended up jumping up and getting involved, but they were cool about that, they were nice guys to work with. Really easy to work with. Why I stopped working with a producer years ago is that I just couldn't bear being told what to do, and they're not like that at all. It was good, it was an interesting experience. And also, for this singles compilation, I just wanted a bit of that responsibility off my shoulders, it was just nice to have some other people there because it's an important record for me this really, and I wanted to give it my best shot with these three new songs. I felt with 'Naked Self' that as much as I loved the album, it was getting extremely aggressive and just didn't get any radio play at all. If I carried on down that path for these recordings ...

J: What was aggressive?

M: A lot of 'NakedSelf', stuff like 'BoilingPoint', 'Saltwater', VoidyNumbness, DieselBreeze and people just didn't want to deal with it.

J: You've done it now haven't you?

M: I've done it and I've got more of that stuff in the can, like I said...

J: You've got Gunsluts still haven't you?

M: Yeah, and that's much more extreme. I just felt like for this record, I wanted to tie it in with the earlier singles, like 'This Is The Day' and 'Heartland' and tie up that whole era, really with a full stop. I wanted my melodic side to be more apparent for this. I think they were the right people to use.

J: Why did you pick 'December Sunlight', because it was ...

M: 'December Sunlight' was supposed to be the next single off 'Naked
Self', but because the relationship with Nothing and with Universal degenerated to such a degree, it was basically unworkable. I thought, 'I'm not going to release another song, I'm not going to waste my time, I'll just hold that back', and decided to put this on as a single on this album rather than let them do it. I trust Sony more than Universal.

J: And what about 'Deep Down Truth', which is a great new song.

M: Thanks. Yeah, that's quite an interesting song.

J: I only heard it once, but aren't there mentions of shadows and light?

M: And beds. There's a lot of lying in bed, waking up and going back to sleep, you know that twilight zone where you're half awake and half asleep? I was pleased with the words on that one. It's about duality really, and just the world that we're in, the life that we're in and the concept of time, and the illusion of time. The duality of evil and good, fate and chance, justice, peace and war. Everything is really illusion. So, a bit of a difficult concept to put into a little 3 minute pop song but I was quite happy with it.

J: Well, I'm pleased to have been able to talk to you about all this stuff
because it seems like, from that wintry night when we first met in '81....

M: 20 years ...

J: ... that it seems like a closure of a very, very long circle and maybe
the start of another one. But 'Pillar Box Red' it's definitely wrapping up a big cycle for you isn't it, with all the stuff you've come through. Does it
seem like you've been through a lot?

M: Yeah, it does, and I've had some fantastic experiences, peak experiences which were just .... but also some moments that were completely overwhelming where I felt I was pretty much losing my mind. But interestingly I suppose, a lot of the early songs that I was writing, in a way foreshadowed some of the experiences I was to go through later in my personal life.

J: Do you feel like you're a different person from the person who wrote
'Burning Blue Soul'?

M: Yes, please tell me who I was!

J: Because you've actually - more than most people - got it out of your
system, haven't you?

M: Maybe. But this album chronicles a 20 year period, an extremely
eventful period. Even though I didn't make as many albums as I would have liked, a lot of the experiences that I put into them I certainly wouldn't have changed. A very intense chunk of time.

J: Let's do it again in another 20 years then, eh?

M: Oh yeah.

THE END