THE DEFINITIVE ARTICLE

Dino - Daily Telegraph (Australia) - 2000


Dino: Hello Matt?

MJ: Yes.

Dino: Matt, this is Dino from The Daily Telegraph in Sydney.

MJ: Hi, Dino. How you doing?

Dino: I’m very well. How are you going?

MJ: Good.

Dino: Matt, I’ve been waiting a lifetime to talk to you and I’m very glad I’ve finally got this opportunity. [Giggle.]

MJ: Good, good.

Dino: What have you been doing of late? How does it feel to resurface into this world of media commitments and such?

MJ: Well, I’ve really been enjoying myself, actually, because I was away for a long time: I mean, well, seven years since the last album of original material although I did pop back briefly for the Hank Williams’ thing [Hanky Panky, 1995]. But I know that the music industry has changed a lot and dance music sits triumphant, particularly in places like Europe, and it’s a weird time [short chuckle]. But I must say - fingers crossed, so far … We did a short American tour in December, pre-release stuff this is, and I’d just come back from a European tour. Everywhere was sold out, the reviews I’m getting are some of the best of my career, and I’m feeling really excited. I’m feeling really good.

Dino: Great.

MJ: But I know It’s a hard slog we’ve got ahead of us and I know it’s a weird time in the industry at the moment but I’ve got off to a really good start and it feels really good, I’m doing a lot of good interviews, and I feel great.

Dino: I only got the album [NakedSelf] on Friday so I’ve only scratched the surface of it as an experience [another girlie giggle]. So just a few initial impressions I wanted to throw at you. Firstly, the whole idea of debuting in the 21st century with essentially a guitar record, flying in the face of things you were just mentioning there. How conscious a decision was that?

MJ: It was. I’ve always liked to fly in the face of ... I suppose the irony of this is, of course, that I was one of the first people to use drum machines and samplers, like, 20 years ago.

Dino: Exactly.

MJ: Back then I was on the verge of being black-listed by the musician’s union in London. They said that if bands like The The get a grip, it’s going to be the end of this, that and the other. So it’s kind of interesting to me. Also I started off doing big videos. I’ve now decided not to do videos.

Dino: [laughs]

MJ: I just ike being a real outsider, on my own, in the distance, pissing in the wind [laughs] so to speak. But it was a conscious decision to get rid of samplers, keyboards, even digital reverb! There’s no reverb on this album at all. The only stuff like that you’d hear would be old tape delays and stuff.

Dino: Right.

MJ: Yeah, and there’s something classic about the old four-piece with drums, bass, two guitars vocals. You know, that old mid-20th century period piece line-up. There’s something very special about that.

Dino: And obviously it’s a very different sounding album for that sort of structure. Again, how consciously were you working to reinvent that genre?

MJ: I was, yeah. Usually when I start an album, I make extensive notes. It’s funny: I can come across old notes mine and I’m able to stay fairly true through the recording of an album to where I want to go. I think it’s very important to have an idea of where you want to go before you … It’s like starting a journey with no maps, you know? I mean, I like to be open to experimentation but at the same time to have a point to what I’m trying to do. Songs like DieselBreeze and BoilingPoint, there’s a lot of editing involved. SwineFever: For instance, the guitars on that, I decided to play very simple
parts but literally over-dub 50 times. So that main riff you’re hearing 50 guitars playing the same thing at once. So just things like that, trying to push things in different directions. Also, not using digital tuners - we just tuned by ear. It sounds an odd thing but that’s how you often get an interesting … Digital tuners, I think, make things too perfect sounding. Some of the best records years ago would have been by people tuning by ear. And when you get that slight sort of tonal oscillation amongst the various instruments. It just makes the thing more vibrant and alive.

Dino: And having real musicians playing real instruments, of course, you’re leaving a lot of it up to fate, the more subtle elements?

MJ: Yeah. Look, machines have their place. I’ve used them and I use them but I’m starting to find ... I think it makes people lazy, like calculators made people lazy with mathematics. I think that a lot of the technology that has made it’s way into the studio has made people’s creativity atrophy ... almost. You know, you can’t think of something to do so you bring in a new box. There’s some amazing stuff and I own a studio in London and I have a lot of equipment over in New York as well. But you cannot beat good ideas performed by humans well. That’s what I think. Not only that, but I also knew that we would be playing live, touring extensively, so I wanted to be able to recreate it live.

Dino: Is it more than coincidence that this album has appeared on Trent Reznor’s label [Nothing Records] considering what it is?  

MJ: Coincidence, because this album was actually recorded and finished when I was at Sony.

Dino: Okay.

MJ: But Trent was a big fan of mine and was inspired by Infected [1986] and Mind Bomb [1989]. So, who knows? And when I left Sony after 17 years, it was a strange period. And there were several major labels that approached me. But what appealed to me … I had to be on a major label for the time being because I needed the support, but Nothing Records offered this sort of sanctuary within the major. Because the problem is, as you’re probably well aware, with these massive mergers with America-Online, Time Warner-EMI,  obviously Universal and Polygram - and we now hear that BMG and Sony might be getting together -  it’s very, very disturbing and, I tell you, it’s disturbing looking from the outside but when you’re on the inside of these companies looking at it, it’s horrible because they’re cutting budgets like anything. And it’s purely to maximise shareholder profit, or at least to be able to swallow the merger. There’s no interest in the music from the executives. It’s probably naïve to think that there ever was really , but I think there used to be more. Now, they don’t even ask how a record sounds. It’s: “How much does it cost? How many are we going to sell?” It’s that brutal. It’s really, really that brutal now. It’s the worst I’ve ever known it and I’ve been in the industry - for what? - 25 years now.

Dino: How sad is that? Going back to the album, there’s also an obvious continuity that’s been there throughout your career lyrically, the same themes of solitude and bitterness. I was wondering now that you’re a family man and you’re well-rested and older, do you have to go to a particular dark place somewhere in the back of your mind to tap into that sort if stuff?

MJ: No. I have to do things to calm down. I go into things like, you know those isolation tanks? Have you ever bee in one of those?

Dino: Yeah, yeah.

MJ: They’re great, aren’t they? And I have to do certain things to calm down. No, that’s just my natural way. I have a natural sunny disposition. Particularly when there’s some young ladies around.

Dino: Cool [laughs]

MJ: Nothing cheers me up like that.

Dino: I bet. You should be walking around Sydney now in summer.

MJ: Don’t remind me. I must say, the ladies of Australia were very obliging and hospitable last time I was there. I’m very much looking forward to going back. [laughs]

Dino: Just to go back to that technology side: To abandon it so fully, when you listen to Soul Mining today, it still sounds … You were one of the first to make that cross over with technology, to make it sound - I don’t know - real, I guess. And it still sounds modern as well.

MJ: Yeah, I hear that a lot, you know, people say that those early albums still sound contemporary. And I think that this one will as well. I think the thing is … I mean, I know quite a few other bands and this is a horrible .. I won’t name names but, you know, there’s a lot of bands, that when they’re sitting in the studio making records, they’re not listening to themselves or how they feel. They actually put on records of other contemporaries, trying to get ideas. And, of course, you’re always going to be one step behind if you’re doing that. You’re not making albums … And I think all the records that stand the test of time is because they’re from the heart, regardless of even how they sound. When people listen to them … There are certain things that are timeless, I think, and sincere human emotions are timeless, whether it’s in a book, a film, a piece of music or a painting. And I think it’s more that, really. And I’ve always tried to be as sincere as I could for the records. And I think this one, it sounds really contemporary, even though it rejects all the contemporary gadgets. And I think it will stand out. You hear stuff on the radio and I can’t believe how similar most contemporary music sounds: The rhythms and the voices and the guitar parts. I don’t know how people bear listening to it.

Dino: Especially on the extreme pop side of things now, it’s, um …

MJ: It’s unbearable. And I went to Britain, we were there last week because we just did a quick show there, and Jesus Christ, it’s like this inane dance music everywhere. It’s fine in balance but it’s like everything, on every advert. There’s just too much music out there. I think it’s saturated, and we’re being bombarded by it from every quarter. It’d be fine if it was a bit varied but there’s like one rhythm which is pervading through everything. It started with that old’ funky drummer’ drum loop years ago. It was James Brown’s old drummer and he was sampled. It was: [Matt gives a verbal sample of the sample using his mouth - “pu-pu-pu pu-pa-pu-pu”] That sort of got used on everything and then that evolved into something else that everybody uses. And also the whole re-mix thing, which I really got sick of … It’s like this industry has one good idea and it stretches it over two decades. Like, you know the ‘Un-Plugged’ idea. It was fine 20 years ago but now everybody’s got to be unplugged. Then the remix thing. Even people’s whose songs shouldn’t be remixed, you get some over-rated DJ in with a sampler, sits in his bedroom and charges a fortune. It’s a con. So what we’re doing, because I’ve formed my own production company now, Lazarus, we’re doing a series of EPs. So instead of people doing remixes of my songs, they’re doing cover versions. It’s fantastic. The first EP is called ShrunkenMan - you know, the song ShrunkenMan on the album - and we’ve got John Parish, who’s PJ Harvey’s musical collaborator, he’s done a fantastic version. We’ve got Foetus (from Melbourne), who’s one of my best mates. And we’ve got DAAU, who are this great Belgium band, they’re these young guys who are really off  with it. So we’ve got four versions of ShrunkenMan which are all really different. We’ve now started working on the second EP, DecemberSunlight.

Dino: Well, there’s an idea to take us into the next two decades.

MJ: Yeah, well I’m sure people will start ripping that off now, and stretching it out. But I just couldn’t bear the idea of some DJ grabbing hold of my songs, charging a fortune and fucking them up. So, I thought fine, we’ll do this. It’s great. I’m very happy with it.

Dino: I’m hanging to hear it. That’s a wild idea.

MJ: Yeah, it sounds great. I’m really, really happy with.

Dino: Cool. I was wondering whether you had an inkling you were in for another serious hiatus after the release of Hanky Panky? Did you know you were going to be away for a long time?

MJ: No, no. Every album that I’m away for years, I never intend to do that. I always think, ‘Right, let’s get straight back in and we’ll release another album next year’. And then events overtake me. A lot of personal problems last … decade, actually. It was a rough decade for me. There was a long-term relationship breaking up, I left Britain fairly permanently, I became a father, some people very close to me in my family died, I left Sony after 17 years. So these were all major events, one after the other. So every aspect of my life, basically, had changed around. It was a very strange time because you really feel, you know, sort of disconnected. And music was the only thing that I did really feel connected to … of course, other than my son. But that was a really new experience, that blew me away. It took me a while to get over that. That was very disorientating.

Dino: What’s his name?

MJ: Jack. Jack Johnson, as in the boxer.

Dino: Alright, cool.

MJ: So it was a very disorientating time and the only thing that I was really able to hang onto, I suppose, was the music and being a songwriter and trying to put it into some perspective, I suppose.

Dino: Can you tell me about Gun Sluts?

MJ: Yeah, Gun Sluts is going to come out on my own label, the Lazarus label. That was an album that I started after the Hank Williams album. I started demo-ing it in New York in  about ... what was it? ... 1996, I think it was. Sony sent an executive over to check on my progress …

Dino: [laughs]

MJ: … and they were horrified by what they heard. Because it’s very discordant and there’s 17-minute tracks. One of the tracks, I locked the guitarist in a room without food and water for, like, days.

Dino: [laughs]

MJ: You should hear the track. It’s called PsychicSauna and it’s amazing. So it was a bit of a mad time. And they heard it and they were like, ‘We’re not paying for this to get recorded,’ because these were sort of demos, really. That started it on a downward spiral. I then put that to one side, I did NakedSelf … And even then they said that they wanted me to make it more commercial. At that point my contract was finally up and I said, ‘Fuck it, I’m leaving. I want the album back.’ It took a year of lawyers negotiating to get it back. And in that year, which was I think October ’98 to June ’99, I flew to my studio in London and I recorded and I finished Gun Sluts. Because I wanted to own it. They were the demos and they were Sony’s, I suppose. I haven’t mixed it yet but I’m going to put it out on Lazarus, some time next year I guess … when I’m off tour and I get time to finish it. It’s definitely going to come out. Actually, there is one track on NakedSelf which made it from Gun Sluts. And that’s DieselBreeze. So that will give you an idea of what it’s like.”

Dino: Okay. When did you actually move to New York?

MJ: It was about ’94.

Dino: Oh right, that far back. We’re probably running out of time so I wanted to quickly ask you about the live side of things, because for a long time there you shunned performing live. I was lucky enough to see what I guess would have been one of the first The The shows in Melbourne (Australia) back in 1989.

MJ: Oh yeah?

Dino: And then a while later I saw the video recording of the last show of that tour, The The Versus The World. And I couldn’t believe the evolution that had taken place over the course of that year.

MJ: Oh really? It was that different? That’s interesting.

Dino: Especially you.

MJ: More confident, I suppose. Well, the thing about live is that people have said to me, “Oh, you were frightened of playing live.’ And it wasn’t the case at all because I’d actually done gigs when I was about 11 or 12. I was in my first band and we’d play in garages and hired village halls. And I’d never been nervous about going on stage. I actually enjoy it. I like the adrenaline thing. The thing was, I loved being in the studio more. That’s all it was. I enjoy playing live and these shows we’ve been doing lately, I have a great time. But at that stage, there was like a ten-year period where I didn’t play live, and I just loved being in the studio. I really loved it. I couldn’t bear being away from the studio. I just spent all my time in there, writing and recording. And that was it, really. But I’m really enjoying playing with this new band and the shows we’re doing are great. As I said, it’s been a long time since I’ve played live so I’ve got to get my strength up in terms of singing and playing. But it’s coming, and it’s a great band. It’s very different from the old band and the old show but I think it’s more powerful in some ways as a four-piece rather than a six-piece. Because each quarter has more of the sound. And there’s just something very symmetrical … It just feels good with the guys and the line-up I’ve got at the moment.

Dino: So can you promise me here and now that you’ll get here (to Australia)?

MJ: Oh yeah, well, we already want to get there. And, as I say, I was made extremely welcomed …

Dino: I think you ruined a few lives last time from the stories I’ve heard … Perhaps one last question, if you’ve got a sec.

MJ: Yeah, sure.

Dino: I just read a posting you put on one of your websites years ago now, back in ’97 or something, and you talked in it about your almost fears for where the internet was going, I guess …

MJ: Yeah.

Dino: But you also spoke about a general optimism that you felt back then about the possible future. So I just wanted to get your general thoughts about the state of play with the beaten generation.

MJ: Well, contrary to what people say about me, I am actually an optimistic person. The thing is, though, I just believe in confronting darker things. I think that way you can live in peace. I don’t believe in sticking your head under the carpet and not deal with things. So, in terms of the beaten generation, what I’ve found inspiring is, say, those riots in Seattle recently against the World Trade Organization, people across Britain and Europe that are ripping up fields of genetically modified corn, digging tunnels underground and hiding in trees to prevent roads being bulldozed through little villages. I think that’s really inspiring. And I would suggest that people look to these people rather than rock stars for inspiration because there’s not a lot of inspiration to be found in popular music now. It’s sort of sold it soul, it’s an appendage of the advertising industry to me. So I would say you’ve got these people, and they’re not in it for the money, they’re in it because they passionately believe in these causes. And I really admire and respect those people who are out there doing that. And there are some great people, there are some great books out there, a lot of good people opposing the general corporatisation of the world. You’ve got to remember that these corporations have got billions and billions of pounds dollars to spend to convince us otherwise. It’s exciting times. I am a general optimist, contrary to popular opinion about me.

Dino: Well, mate, it’s been a real privilege talking to you. Thank you so much for your time.

MJ: Thank you.

Dino: I’m very much looking forward to immersing myself in NakedSelf.

MJ: Good. Crank it up. And pour yourself a nice glass of rum or something.

Dino: Excellent. And I hope to see you here soon.

MJ: Yes. We’ll definitely be over.

Dino: Bye.

MJ: Bye.